Torture has not kept us safer -- au contraire - Page 12 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #**166** 12-16-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Probably. But then, I wasn't really a big fan of the ol' Great Satan to begin with, so that's not a road to Damascus moment for me.

And probably I would barf-up every bit of everything I knew about everybody who could possibly have been involved.

The critical question then is this: Is the risk of inciting further violence through bad publicity worth subjecting high-value targets to coercive interrogation?

No bombs in Brooklyn.

That's a partial answer.

And what are you going to say next time we do get attacked?

Oh yeah, torture of fools at Gitmo who were handed over to us by Pakis/Afghans for $4,000, a bleedin' fortune over there, is why there have been no attacks on US soil since 9/11.

How to conclude otherwise? Your logic is impeccable.

Botnst · #**167** 12-16-2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

And what are you going to say next time we do get attacked?

Oh yeah, torture of fools at Gitmo who were handed over to us by Pakis/Afghans for $4,000, a bleedin' fortune over there, is why there have been to attacks on US soil since 9/11.

How to conclude otherwise? Your logic is impeccable.

What am I going to do the next time we're attacked?

Since I haven't a crystal ball nor the ability to mind-read, I don't know that there will be a next time.

As far as I know, prior to 9/11 there was no coercive interrogation of any Al Qaedistas and yet, those homicidal freaking religious fanatics bombed embassies and apartments for a good number of years before they flew into buildings and began decapitating prisoners of war. They haven't read your behavior book yet. Might want to clue them in that their whole causal game plan is bass-ackwards.

B

aklim · #**168** 12-17-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

As far as I know, prior to 9/11 there was no coercive interrogation of any Al Qaedistas and yet, those homicidal freaking religious fanatics bombed embassies and apartments for a good number of years before they flew into buildings and began decapitating prisoners of war. They haven't read your behavior book yet. Might want to clue them in that their whole causal game plan is bass-ackwards.

You simply don't understand do you. That behavior book only pertains to us. The other side can do as it pleases. I'll chip in for his flight to talk to OBL. Anyone want in on that too? Probably needs to be a 1 way flight only.

cmac2012 · #**169** 12-17-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

What am I going to do the next time we're attacked?

Since I haven't a crystal ball nor the ability to mind-read, I don't know that there will be a next time.

As far as I know, prior to 9/11 there was no coercive interrogation of any Al Qaedistas and yet, those homicidal freaking religious fanatics bombed embassies and apartments for a good number of years before they flew into buildings and began decapitating prisoners of war. They haven't read your behavior book yet. Might want to clue them in that their whole causal game plan is bass-ackwards.

The standard line I hear from the John Yoo fan club is something like: 'If they're not going to play by the rules, why should we?'

Well uh, cuzzin' if we don't we demonstrate to them and the world that we're no better than them. Bringing about advancement in the behavior of others is not easy but one of the methods that is known to work is: model correct behavior.

Botnst · #**170** 12-17-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The standard line I hear from the John Yoo fan club is something like: 'If they're not going to play by the rules, why should we?'

Well uh, cuzzin' if we don't we demonstrate to them and the world that we're no better than them. Bringing about advancement in the behavior of others is not easy but one of the methods that is known to work is: model correct behavior.

We demonstrated restraint prior to 9/11. Did a fine job of convincing them to change their farking evil ways, didn't it?

You turn your cheek. Leave mine alone.

aklim · #**171** 12-17-2008, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Well uh, cuzzin' if we don't we demonstrate to them and the world that we're no better than them. Bringing about advancement in the behavior of others is not easy but one of the methods that is known to work is: model correct behavior.

Dude! Whatever you are smoking, can I have some? Has that worked in any theater of war besides your mind? Were the Germans or Japanese advanced in their behavior? Go ask some of the US Servicemen who were POWs. I would suggest you ask the people the Japs captured but a lot of them were dead. Ask John Edwards to talk to them for you.

aklim · #**172** 12-17-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

You turn your cheek. Leave mine alone.

Ancient Chinese Saying: If man slap you on the right cheek and you turn to him left cheek, soon you have 2 sore cheeks.

cmac2012 · #**173** 12-17-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

We demonstrated restraint prior to 9/11. Did a fine job of convincing them to change their farking evil ways, didn't it?

You turn your cheek. Leave mine alone.

Those folks hate us for all sorts of reasons. I claimed that doing nice things would protect us from any and all evil? I don't recall saying that.

Mammy Yokum used to "say:" 'Good'll win over evil son, cause it's nicer.'

I'm talking the long haul. I have a hard time believing that US POWs in the future won't be more likely to receive harsh treatment as a result of Gitmo, Abu-Gharib, Bush-ism. In borderline cases, where some of the jailers had some scruples left, they will likely be over-ruled by the hotheads.

As for your cutesy-ness, when American might is extended in foreign lands, my cheek is involved whether I like it or not.

cmac2012 · #**174** 12-17-2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Dude! Whatever you are smoking, can I have some? Has that worked in any theater of war besides your mind? Were the Germans or Japanese advanced in their behavior? Go ask some of the US Servicemen who were POWs. I would suggest you ask the people the Japs captured but a lot of them were dead. Ask John Edwards to talk to them for you.

The Japanese behaved more barbarically than we, best I can tell. And who won that war? Which nation ended up studying at the feet of the other?

The Brits treated German prisoners with utmost restraint. How'd that one come out?

mwood · #**175** 12-18-2008, 12:03 AM

What will deter our enemies from torturing (and decapitating) our soldiers is for us to rain down unholy hell on the mother fockers and their families and their villages every time they pull that **** on us. Torture one of ours we kill 100 of theirs.

mwood · #**176** 12-18-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The Japanese behaved more barbarically than we, best I can tell. And who won that war? Which nation ended up studying at the feet of the other?

The Brits treated German prisoners with utmost restraint. How'd that one come out?

You think there's a correlation between who won those wars and how the respective sides treated their prisoners? How did that equation work out in Nam?

Botnst · #**177** 12-18-2008, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The Japanese behaved more barbarically than we, best I can tell. And who won that war? Which nation ended up studying at the feet of the other?

The Brits treated German prisoners with utmost restraint. How'd that one come out?

Hiroshima. Nagasaki.

aklim · #**178** 12-18-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The Japanese behaved more barbarically than we, best I can tell. And who won that war? Which nation ended up studying at the feet of the other?

The Brits treated German prisoners with utmost restraint. How'd that one come out?

We have had snowy days for the last couple of days. Last night I left my garage door open by accident. I noticed a strange thing. I saw the sun this morning. Do you see the connection? I don't. But lets use your way. How the the Vietnamese come out treating the US prisoners badly?

cmac2012 · #**179** 12-18-2008, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwood

What will deter our enemies from torturing (and decapitating) our soldiers is for us to rain down unholy hell on the mother fockers and their families and their villages every time they pull that **** on us. Torture one of ours we kill 100 of theirs.

What makes you think that isn't their policy? These people have a culture of revenge that would have made the Hatfields and McCoys blush.

During hot war, fight, kill, maim -- the whole works. But when you have someone as a prisoner, there is no immedieate danger to you from them. Your treatment of them reflects on your character. The punks at Abu Gharib came across as twisted sickos, though I can't imagine why anyone would object to such treatment being doled out to themselves or a family member.

Like the rest of the chest beating contingent, you believe that you and the clan of Americans loosely in your camp are special, somehow better than the rest of the people in the world.

cmac2012 · #**180** 12-18-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwood

You think there's a correlation between who won those wars and how the respective sides treated their prisoners? How did that equation work out in Nam?

It's a tossup. If you believe our guys from that war, tossing prisoners from helicopters to get the rest to talk was not uncommon.

I do think that character and honor affect the level of one's performance. Like they say, no honor among thieves. The more low-life a crowd is, the less likely they are to work together, to have each other's back, etc.

Yes, I do think there's a correlation.