Mobil-1 changed their ATF formula... - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

bullwinkle · #31 10-08-2007, 12:07 PM

The Dexron III spec/licensing is allegedly obsolete-that's why Exxon/Mobil can't state that M-1 is "recommended" for it, the Mercon V is the only old spec still in use, I've also had several tranny rebuilders tell me to use conventional fluid w/a trans temp gauge (& external coolers on trucks/tow vehicles).

gsxr · #32 10-08-2007, 01:13 PM

If it were just a licensing issue, the formula would have remained the same, while the label and packaging would change. But no, they did a major change to the formula, too. And other companies have not stopped using the Dexron name yet (i.e., Amsoil ATF still says "Dexron III" all over it.)

Conventional fluid can cause less consistent shifting with temp change, and hotter running temps in general. The whole idea behind full synthetic ATF is that it provides more consistent shifts between cold and hot, it runs quite a bit cooler, and can last longer without having performance degrade.

vstech · #33 10-08-2007, 01:46 PM

I don't understand this thread. the back of the package says to use the fluid with pretty much everything... what am I reading wrong? it mentions mobil dexron vI... but the way I read it the M1 is good for all trannys.... not so?

gsxr · #34 10-08-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

I don't understand this thread. the back of the package says to use the fluid with pretty much everything... what am I reading wrong? it mentions mobil dexron vI... but the way I read it the M1 is good for all trannys.... not so?

Basically, Mobil is saying that Dexron applications (i.e., Mercedes) should use Mobil's cheaper, inferior semi-synthetic ATF fluid (Dexron VI) instead of their better, full-synthetic Mobil-1 fluid. That's what bothers me, along with the significant change in the new formula, the details of which are still unknown at this point.

pawoSD · #35 10-08-2007, 02:15 PM

The Valvoline Dexron VI that we got from NAPA works great and the bottle says it works in Dexron II and III applications. Its a full synthetic and its normally only $4.89 a quart! We got 24 quarts. Seems to work very well, smooth shifts, and very very smooth/quiet at idle....used to be noisier.

Hatterasguy · #36 10-08-2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

LOL. I agree... but I've also found that the cost of shipping for several gallons of lubricant can be significant. If you find any screaming deals online, please let us know!

True, but I'm going to get two of my friends to order like 12 cases with me!

Actualy I wonder if I can get it wholesale from one of the marine suppliers I use. I'll have to check.

DieselAddict · #37 10-08-2007, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Basically, Mobil is saying that Dexron applications (i.e., Mercedes) should use Mobil's cheaper, inferior semi-synthetic ATF fluid (Dexron VI) instead of their better, full-synthetic Mobil-1 fluid. That's what bothers me, along with the significant change in the new formula, the details of which are still unknown at this point.

But you're only judging the formula by the smell. Is the smell so important? Maybe they're just using a new dye that smells different. A better way to compare the formulas would be to do a virgin oil analysis. Also their recommendation to use the inferior ATF seems to only concern pre-2006 GM vehicles. It's fine for all Chrysler vehicles for example. Have you called Mobil yet?

Magoo · #38 10-08-2007, 02:42 PM

I've seen Amsoil at Carquest and Advance Auto Parts stores, but the sales people there said that they get it from a a local dealer. I guess they can market stuff like that in their independent franchise stores, but they don't "officially" carry it like Bendix brand brake pads or something.

bustedbenz · #39 10-08-2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Basically, Mobil is saying that Dexron applications (i.e., Mercedes) should use Mobil's cheaper, inferior semi-synthetic ATF fluid (Dexron VI) instead of their better, full-synthetic Mobil-1 fluid. That's what bothers me, along with the significant change in the new formula, the details of which are still unknown at this point.

But we're talking about 20 year old cars. They are recommending the use of a fluid that's more like what the transmissions from 20 years before were used to, more like what they were designed for, than some new stuff that isn't as close to original spec.

If standard was good enough twenty years ago, then semi-standard is bound to be plenty good enough now... it can't have gone down. And the "inferior" stuff is less of a jump from "design" than full synthetic.

That said, we're on nonsynthetic Dexron stuff at the moment, they still had it at Advance last time we needed it. I think it's Parts Master (which is essentially Valvoline, at least in crankcase oil it is)

gsxr · #40 10-08-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

But you're only judging the formula by the smell. Is the smell so important? Maybe they're just using a new dye that smells different. A better way to compare the formulas would be to do a virgin oil analysis. Also their recommendation to use the inferior ATF seems to only concern pre-2006 GM vehicles. It's fine for all Chrysler vehicles for example. Have you called Mobil yet?

All true. But the smell indicates a change in the formula, not just the labeling/licensing. Also, as new engine & tranny fluid specs have been released over the past 20 years, they are almost always backwards compatible. For example, Dexron VI claims to supercede Dexron III. Fine, that's great.

So in that case, Mobil-1 ATF should also be rated as Dexron-VI approved and meeting Dexron VI specifications, which it is NOT. The pre-2006 GM vehicles basically means everything that used to specify earlier versions of Dexron ATF. Not sure about the Chrysler stuff, but I'm not lumping pre-2000 Mercedes in with "Chrysler". And no, I still haven't had time to call Mobil. Still want to do that however.

For the record, I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, I'm just trying to point out that:

(1) the M-1 ATF formula has changed,
(2) that M-1 ATF is no longer officially approved for Dexron III or Dexron VI, and
(3) Mobil is now recommending a different ATF (not Mobil-1) for all Dexron applications.

What you do with this information is your business, but personally I will not be using M-1 ATF in any of my Mercedes until it is formally and officially meeting Dexron specifications.

pawoSD · #41 10-08-2007, 04:40 PM

Chrysler transmissions generally require an "anti-friction" additive due to how they operate and have those super-smooth seeming shifts. Our minivan requires that stuff....its called "ATF +4" Pretty expensive too...thankfully it only holds 5qts and doesn't leak. The mobil 1 saying it will work in chrysler vehicles could mean it has such an additive, which may not be so good to the innards of our pre-historic trannies. I'm sticking with the Valvoline Dexron VI or Amsoil....but the Valvoline is way cheaper, and I replace the fluid/filter yearly....

gsxr · #42 11-06-2007, 11:46 AM

I finally called Mobil - sorry it took so long, but I've been way too busy lately. Anyway, they said that it is not possible to certify a fluid Dexron-III any longer, because it's an obsolete specification. It has been superceded by Dexron-VI. That's all old news, we knew that. So, then I asked why the new M-1 MVF ATF is not certified Dexron-VI, and the basic answer is that Mobil-1 MVF ATF does not meet the requirements for Dexron-VI. Period. That's why it doesn't say "Dexron" anywhere on the label. They still want you to buy their non-synthetic Dexron-VI fluid for Dexron-VI applications, but make the nebulous claim that the M1 MVF should work in pre-2005 vehicles, they just can't formally put the Dexron-III approval on there. And, he didn't state if it did actually meet Dexron-III specs or not - I didn't specifically ask, but I bet he couldn't say, even if he did know the answer.

Another update: Amsoil's ATF appears similar to the Mobil-1 formula, but in a thinner viscosity to meet Dexron-VI specs. I'm not sure if Amsoil is officially licensed by Dexron, but Amsoil isn't shy about putting the Dexron name all over their spec sheets. However it still reeks like M-1 does. I tried this stuff in my '93, but I won't use it again.

Bottom line - Only Red Line Synthetic ATF has official approvals for Dexron-II, as well as official Mercedes approval (and it clearly states this on the label). I'd much rather use a fluid that has the official Dexron approvals, certification, and licensing. I added a new post later in this thread with more details on the Red Line ATF - skip ahead to post #79.

I sure miss the old Mobil... first they mess up their M-1 oil formulas, now they hosed up the ATF as well. If they ever screw up the Delvac-1 formula, I'll be switching to Red Line engine oil too...!

Hatterasguy · #43 11-06-2007, 12:27 PM

Well if its the same formula as before it should work for our cars. The oldest MB trans that can use it are 1996's, and it should exceed what they had back then by a fair margin.

Either way I'm using Amsoil next time I change the ATF.

greasybenz · #44 11-06-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

That's the nuisance with Amsoil... it's sort of a pyramid-style marketing scheme, sort of like Cutco knives. Good products, but the marketing may turn some people off.

Anyway, you probably will NOT find Amsoil at any major chain stores. A smaller local speed shop may carry it. If you intend to buy more than a case or two at a time, you can probably get your own Amsoil distributorship. A couple of years ago I investigated this and found that may be the cheaper way to go, unless you can find a local Amsoil dealer that sells near wholesale prices. Do some Googling and see what turns up... that worked for me last time.

Hah i used to sell cutco, and their marketing style is what made me quit! As for Amsoil the napa auto parts store in redwood city actually stocks amsoil engine oils and ATF fluids.

DieselAddict · #45 11-06-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Bottom line - Amsoil ATF has official approvals for Dexron-II, III, and IV as well as Mercon & Mercon V. I'd much rather use a fluid that has the official Dexron approvals, certification, and licensing. Here's a link:

I don't think those are official approvals. Notice the website says "AMSOIL ATF is recommended for transmission, hydraulic and other applications requiring any of the following specifications:" The key phrase here is "recommended for". That's not the same as official approval, and basically they just do their own testing without submitting for a license. Perhaps they are a bit more flexible on the legal issues than ExxonMobil. I have almost no doubt Mobil's new ATF would pass all Dexron III tests if tested. I'm certainly not draining and throwing away what I have in my transmission right now. 60K miles later if I still have this car I might give Amsoil or Red Line a consideration.