WVO? inevitable damage to engine? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

digieditny · #1 11-04-2010, 08:43 PM

So I've been reading the threads about WVO. I could not find a definite answer. It seems like some people have good experiences with it and other people don't. My car currently has about 260,000 miles on it. I want the thing to run forever. I believe that the consensus is that the car will eventually fail because of WVO no matter what kit you use and how careful you are with filtering and switching over to diesel when the car is hot and shutting down. Is this true?

I want this car to last a long time. So scrap any idea of running WVO and run biodiesel when it's hot out and move on... Get a rabbit if I want to run WVO.

If you're going to reply with "WVO is as good as diesel" please have at least 100,000 miles under your belt.

digi

kinghais · #2 11-04-2010, 08:49 PM

i was running wvo in my 83 300TD for a month to c how it works, it actually worked fine but it seems like it damaged the IP, now everytime i cold start it, it just wanna cut off so i have rev it few like 10 sec and then it will perfect.

funola · #3 11-04-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinghais

i was running wvo in my 83 300TD for a month to c how it works, it actually worked fine but it seems like it damaged the IP, now everytime i cold start it, it just wanna cut off so i have rev it few like 10 sec and then it will perfect.

What you did was cold start on VO. That's not good for the rings.

scottmcphee · #4 11-04-2010, 09:35 PM

Yes, it is true. Cars run on WVO will eventually fail. Sad, but very very true. It is not a miracle elixir. That same car will also eventually fail if run on diesel all its life.

So what are you really asking?

digieditny · #5 11-04-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottmcphee

So what are you really asking?

Sorry thought it was obvious... I guess the plain and simple question is...

Will running WVO kill the car prematurely compared to diesel?

W124 E300D · #6 11-04-2010, 09:37 PM

What fuel was your ACTUAL engine and IP designed to work on.

That is your answer.

75Sv1 · #7 11-05-2010, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

What fuel was your ACTUAL engine and IP designed to work on.

That is your answer.

Can't get that fuel in the US.
Tom

W124 E300D · #8 11-05-2010, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1

Can't get that fuel in the US.
Tom

Bull****.

to anyone considering WVO, three points.

1/ The Bosch in-line injection pump used in the merc is one of the highest quality, most over engineered diesel injection pumps available in a motor car.

There are better pumps out there, but not in motor cars.

Here in Europe we have diesel cars coming out of our ass, literally everyone makes them, if WVO was so good, all of these old diesels would be running it, but no, every WVO'er in Europe wants to get their hands on a merc diesel, because the IP is so good... compared to all other cars, in which the IPs die a quick death.

That fact alone tells you WVO is crap and in fact you are trading on the remaining life in an over engineered IP.

2/ Run the numbers and do the math.

Trying to do a WVO conversion PROPERLY costs from £1,000 UK Pounds on up.

Trying to make WVO also costs money, I know people living on state benefits who claim their time as being free, and it still costs them about 15 pence per litre to make the WVO suitable for the engine.

Frankly I think this is unrealistically low and fantasy land stuff, I figure it is nearer 50 pence per litre even just counting my time at minimum wage, street sweeper stuff. But what the hell, we'll go with the fantasy 15p/litre.

Here in the UK pump diesel is UK£ 1.15 a litre. If you're in the states and your fuel is FAR cheaper, the numbers come out FAR worse.

I get about 7.5 to 8.5 miles per litre, depending on the type of driving I do. Call it 8.

The UK£1,000 conversion is a capital cost, 1000 / 1.15 = 870 litres of pump diesel, which = 6,960 miles of driving.

But WVO ain't free, those 870 litres @ 15 p litre WVO costs another £130, in fact as mpg on WVO is lower, it costs nearer £150.

So basically, you have to do 10,000 miles, 100% trouble free, to break even.

Then you get into the maintenance issues associated costs, you start getting through glowplugs, you get IP issues, you eat filters for a passtime, you have to up your regimen of lube oil and filter changes, and sooner or later even on the bulletproof mercedes heads start being removed, and of course all this costs money too (quite apart from the simple loss of having a 100% reliable, turn the key and go anywhere diesel car) and even at insane UK fuel prices, all these extra repairs and maintenance start to add up, and they all buy a LOT of pump diesel.

It isn't hard to spend £1,000 under the bonnet of a merc diesel, just a top end gasket set and some minor shop remedial work, even if you do your own spannering.

But that's another 870 litres of insanely expensive UK pump diesel you could have bought, and another 10,000 miles of trouble free motoring you could have had with it, and your car is off the road again.

And we aren't even starting to look at the capital cost of the car, which you just destroyed the instant you put WVO in it (nobody else will touch the car afterwards) and of course the ongoing depreciation of the once massively over engineered IP equipment.

Basically you have to do 30,000 miles to break even, and that's at UK pump prices, and that's assuming you don't mind eating the cost of the car and killing it, which you should be taken out and shot for IMHO.

This is before you factor in your own time work, this all assumed you work for 0 cents an hour..... I know one guy who uses 15% of his product to drive around getting more WVO, and another 10% of his product in an old stationary engine to run a genny to power his WVO setup, so in fact that is 25% of his product gone before any goes in the tank, which makes the sums even worse.

3/ The very people who consider WVO are in fact the least competent to do it successfully, they are skimpers, corner cutters, people who will work 6 hours to save 5 bucks... someone else made a comment that you have to be a half decent mechanic to make WVO work properly, I'll turn that on it's head, yeah, you have to be half decent, because if you were a damn good mechanic you wouldn't go near the stuff.

And please, spare me the crap about otto diesel and peanut oil, these engines were specified to run on #2 diesel, if you want to see an engine specified to run on bunker oil, which is in fact the dino-hydrocarbon closest to WVO/VO/SVO, then go to a ship bowels, or go to an old stationary engine place.

I am a time served engineer, I could design and build my own WVO kit, I live in a country where diesel is JUST SHY OF US$2.00 per litre, I have an old W124 that I paid about a thousand bucks for, I am not rich (just going through the divorce / child courts) and I am ****ing mean, I fix everything instead of throwing it away, I make stuff rather than buy it, but even I will not even dream of running WVO in a vehicle.

If I had the capital to make a biodiesel plant, I'd never get my money back, I'd have to run a fleet of diesel vehicles to even get close.

IF I ran a light truck, which a direct injection 7 or 8 litre straight six, something like an old MAN or Petter etc, yes, then I would consider WVO, because;

a/ the engine never exceeds 2,500 RPM which is within WVO flame front speeds

b/ the engine is direct injection.

c/ the engine is minimum 1 lire per cylinder

d/ the engine drinks enough juice anyway that it is worth it.

The MB diesel FAILS on every single aspect of a WVO/VO/WVO conversion except for one very small item, the Injection Pump is extremely high quality.

The rest of the engine is TOTALLY UNSUITABLE.

75Sv1 · #9 11-05-2010, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

Bull****.

to anyone considering WVO, three points.

1/ The Bosch in-line injection pump used in the merc is one of the highest quality, most over engineered diesel injection pumps available in a motor car.

There are better pumps out there, but not in motor cars.

Here in Europe we have diesel cars coming out of our ass, literally everyone makes them, if WVO was so good, all of these old diesels would be running it, but no, every WVO'er in Europe wants to get their hands on a merc diesel, because the IP is so good... compared to all other cars, in which the IPs die a quick death.

That fact alone tells you WVO is crap and in fact you are trading on the remaining life in an over engineered IP.

2/ Run the numbers and do the math.

Trying to do a WVO conversion PROPERLY costs from £1,000 UK Pounds on up.

Trying to make WVO also costs money, I know people living on state benefits who claim their time as being free, and it still costs them about 15 pence per litre to make the WVO suitable for the engine.

Frankly I think this is unrealistically low and fantasy land stuff, I figure it is nearer 50 pence per litre even just counting my time at minimum wage, street sweeper stuff. But what the hell, we'll go with the fantasy 15p/litre.

Here in the UK pump diesel is UK£ 1.15 a litre. If you're in the states and your fuel is FAR cheaper, the numbers come out FAR worse.

I get about 7.5 to 8.5 miles per litre, depending on the type of driving I do. Call it 8.

The UK£1,000 conversion is a capital cost, 1000 / 1.15 = 870 litres of pump diesel, which = 6,960 miles of driving.

But WVO ain't free, those 870 litres @ 15 p litre WVO costs another £130, in fact as mpg on WVO is lower, it costs nearer £150.

So basically, you have to do 10,000 miles, 100% trouble free, to break even.

Then you get into the maintenance issues associated costs, you start getting through glowplugs, you get IP issues, you eat filters for a passtime, you have to up your regimen of lube oil and filter changes, and sooner or later even on the bulletproof mercedes heads start being removed, and of course all this costs money too (quite apart from the simple loss of having a 100% reliable, turn the key and go anywhere diesel car) and even at insane UK fuel prices, all these extra repairs and maintenance start to add up, and they all buy a LOT of pump diesel.

It isn't hard to spend £1,000 under the bonnet of a merc diesel, just a top end gasket set and some minor shop remedial work, even if you do your own spannering.

But that's another 870 litres of insanely expensive UK pump diesel you could have bought, and another 10,000 miles of trouble free motoring you could have had with it, and your car is off the road again.

And we aren't even starting to look at the capital cost of the car, which you just destroyed the instant you put WVO in it (nobody else will touch the car afterwards) and of course the ongoing depreciation of the once massively over engineered IP equipment.

Basically you have to do 30,000 miles to break even, and that's at UK pump prices, and that's assuming you don't mind eating the cost of the car and killing it, which you should be taken out and shot for IMHO.

This is before you factor in your own time work, this all assumed you work for 0 cents an hour..... I know one guy who uses 15% of his product to drive around getting more WVO, and another 10% of his product in an old stationary engine to run a genny to power his WVO setup, so in fact that is 25% of his product gone before any goes in the tank, which makes the sums even worse.

3/ The very people who consider WVO are in fact the least competent to do it successfully, they are skimpers, corner cutters, people who will work 6 hours to save 5 bucks... someone else made a comment that you have to be a half decent mechanic to make WVO work properly, I'll turn that on it's head, yeah, you have to be half decent, because if you were a damn good mechanic you wouldn't go near the stuff.

And please, spare me the crap about otto diesel and peanut oil, these engines were specified to run on #2 diesel, if you want to see an engine specified to run on bunker oil, which is in fact the dino-hydrocarbon closest to WVO/VO/SVO, then go to a ship bowels, or go to an old stationary engine place.

I am a time served engineer, I could design and build my own WVO kit, I live in a country where diesel is JUST SHY OF US$2.00 per litre, I have an old W124 that I paid about a thousand bucks for, I am not rich (just going through the divorce / child courts) and I am ****ing mean, I fix everything instead of throwing it away, I make stuff rather than buy it, but even I will not even dream of running WVO in a vehicle.

If I had the capital to make a biodiesel plant, I'd never get my money back, I'd have to run a fleet of diesel vehicles to even get close.

IF I ran a light truck, which a direct injection 7 or 8 litre straight six, something like an old MAN or Petter etc, yes, then I would consider WVO, because;

a/ the engine never exceeds 2,500 RPM which is within WVO flame front speeds

b/ the engine is direct injection.

c/ the engine is minimum 1 lire per cylinder

d/ the engine drinks enough juice anyway that it is worth it.

The MB diesel FAILS on every single aspect of a WVO/VO/WVO conversion except for one very small item, the Injection Pump is extremely high quality.

The rest of the engine is TOTALLY UNSUITABLE.

OK, you can, but its died red for off road use. The fine is heffty. I do know/ have meet a few people who run WVO succesfully. Or at least haven't heard of them having any problems. I do see many points in your post that need to be heeded. What is the actual cost? What is your time worth? And yes, more than a few engines and fuel pumps have bit the dust due to WVO.
I don't run WVO myself. I was looking at it when diesel was over $4/gal. I also though about making biodiesel. Something scared me about the chemicals used. I also looked in the CNG conversion for another vehicle. Ran the math and decided it wasn't worth it.
I did buy this car to convert to WVO. Gas was $4/gal or such. Height of the Iraqi war. I was getting about 21-25 mpg out of my gas car. I am getting 28 mpg with the 240D. I drive about 15 miles one way to work. That really isn't far enough to go the WVO route. Yes, you also have to figure out what your time is worth. I do mow my own lawn. Would it be worth paying someone else to do that? I haven't done the math, really.
Tom

babymog · #10 11-05-2010, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

Bull****.

to anyone considering WVO, three points <<snip>>

Well said, I will be bookmarking this and using it for every "should I convert" post.

I agree on most points.

I believe that a WVO conversion can be done well, and that many WVO conversions are not. Example being poster Oliver above, who is currently having un-resolved problems with his ( http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=287679 ), yet to find out what the problem is or how it occurred. His conversion is a fairly simple one, not to say that is wrong, but that it cuts initial costs and the complexity of making fuel at a likely down the road penalty, and initially he was basically pouring the stuff into a car without any "conversion" on the car. Either, both, or neither could have led to his current symptoms on another thread.

I have a couple of neighbors "successfully" running WVO converted 617/603/606 cars and one Tdi. Smell cool, get the stickers for the back windows, a great hobby.

However, it is a hobby, the time and money spent collecting and distilling the fuels as well as the mess and hazardous chemicals, space in the garage, extra tank in the vehicle (on some conversions), I'm not sure that you could ever justify it from a $$ standpoint even with $3/gallon diesel.

I don't run WVO for this reason, plus the un-known eventual maintenance (search stuck rings etc.), and the last point being I won't touch a WVO burning car unless it is so underpriced that I can't go wrong. There are several every month on CL and ebay, mostly don't sell for much and often have problems as the reason for the sale.

I have nothing against running it, if you can I'm happy for you as you're doing the world a favor, albeit a small one, for not buying "blood oil". I'm just not that motivated, have enough things in my life costing time and money. If you want to run it and know the time/money involved, do lots of research to be sure you're doing the best conversion and fuel-production possible.

300TODD · #11 02-23-2011, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W124 E300D

Bull****.

to anyone considering WVO, three points.

1/ The Bosch in-line injection pump used in the merc is one of the highest quality, most over engineered diesel injection pumps available in a motor car.

There are better pumps out there, but not in motor cars.

Here in Europe we have diesel cars coming out of our ass, literally everyone makes them, if WVO was so good, all of these old diesels would be running it, but no, every WVO'er in Europe wants to get their hands on a merc diesel, because the IP is so good... compared to all other cars, in which the IPs die a quick death.

That fact alone tells you WVO is crap and in fact you are trading on the remaining life in an over engineered IP.

2/ Run the numbers and do the math.

Trying to do a WVO conversion PROPERLY costs from £1,000 UK Pounds on up.

Trying to make WVO also costs money, I know people living on state benefits who claim their time as being free, and it still costs them about 15 pence per litre to make the WVO suitable for the engine.

Frankly I think this is unrealistically low and fantasy land stuff, I figure it is nearer 50 pence per litre even just counting my time at minimum wage, street sweeper stuff. But what the hell, we'll go with the fantasy 15p/litre.

Here in the UK pump diesel is UK£ 1.15 a litre. If you're in the states and your fuel is FAR cheaper, the numbers come out FAR worse.

I get about 7.5 to 8.5 miles per litre, depending on the type of driving I do. Call it 8.

The UK£1,000 conversion is a capital cost, 1000 / 1.15 = 870 litres of pump diesel, which = 6,960 miles of driving.

But WVO ain't free, those 870 litres @ 15 p litre WVO costs another £130, in fact as mpg on WVO is lower, it costs nearer £150.

So basically, you have to do 10,000 miles, 100% trouble free, to break even.

Then you get into the maintenance issues associated costs, you start getting through glowplugs, you get IP issues, you eat filters for a passtime, you have to up your regimen of lube oil and filter changes, and sooner or later even on the bulletproof mercedes heads start being removed, and of course all this costs money too (quite apart from the simple loss of having a 100% reliable, turn the key and go anywhere diesel car) and even at insane UK fuel prices, all these extra repairs and maintenance start to add up, and they all buy a LOT of pump diesel.

It isn't hard to spend £1,000 under the bonnet of a merc diesel, just a top end gasket set and some minor shop remedial work, even if you do your own spannering.

But that's another 870 litres of insanely expensive UK pump diesel you could have bought, and another 10,000 miles of trouble free motoring you could have had with it, and your car is off the road again.

And we aren't even starting to look at the capital cost of the car, which you just destroyed the instant you put WVO in it (nobody else will touch the car afterwards) and of course the ongoing depreciation of the once massively over engineered IP equipment.

Basically you have to do 30,000 miles to break even, and that's at UK pump prices, and that's assuming you don't mind eating the cost of the car and killing it, which you should be taken out and shot for IMHO.

This is before you factor in your own time work, this all assumed you work for 0 cents an hour..... I know one guy who uses 15% of his product to drive around getting more WVO, and another 10% of his product in an old stationary engine to run a genny to power his WVO setup, so in fact that is 25% of his product gone before any goes in the tank, which makes the sums even worse.

3/ The very people who consider WVO are in fact the least competent to do it successfully, they are skimpers, corner cutters, people who will work 6 hours to save 5 bucks... someone else made a comment that you have to be a half decent mechanic to make WVO work properly, I'll turn that on it's head, yeah, you have to be half decent, because if you were a damn good mechanic you wouldn't go near the stuff.

And please, spare me the crap about otto diesel and peanut oil, these engines were specified to run on #2 diesel, if you want to see an engine specified to run on bunker oil, which is in fact the dino-hydrocarbon closest to WVO/VO/SVO, then go to a ship bowels, or go to an old stationary engine place.

I am a time served engineer, I could design and build my own WVO kit, I live in a country where diesel is JUST SHY OF US$2.00 per litre, I have an old W124 that I paid about a thousand bucks for, I am not rich (just going through the divorce / child courts) and I am ****ing mean, I fix everything instead of throwing it away, I make stuff rather than buy it, but even I will not even dream of running WVO in a vehicle.

If I had the capital to make a biodiesel plant, I'd never get my money back, I'd have to run a fleet of diesel vehicles to even get close.

IF I ran a light truck, which a direct injection 7 or 8 litre straight six, something like an old MAN or Petter etc, yes, then I would consider WVO, because;

a/ the engine never exceeds 2,500 RPM which is within WVO flame front speeds

b/ the engine is direct injection.

c/ the engine is minimum 1 lire per cylinder

d/ the engine drinks enough juice anyway that it is worth it.

The MB diesel FAILS on every single aspect of a WVO/VO/WVO conversion except for one very small item, the Injection Pump is extremely high quality.

The rest of the engine is TOTALLY UNSUITABLE.

Jeeze, what a long winded tirade of quackery. None of that anecdotal slop actually proves anything. Thanks for the illogical gibberish... and from an "engineer". Like the man said... 100,000 WVO miles under your belt... then you'll have some knowledge instead of of just blabbery opinion. As for me, only a few tens of thousands on WVO so far, so the jury is still out. But so far no coking and she runs like a top. Gee, so sorry she wasn't intended for it... like I care!

subetealabici · #12 02-28-2011, 02:29 AM

This thread is interesting, it seems like some people will only use Dyno diesel on their cars and some other fuel will destroy you car to pieces, and some other people like the idea of WVO,

I will consider myself more in the group that use WVO, although I think it puts more wear on the engine It may be paid off after some time, I think it is also more like a hobby and you get to spend more time dealing with the oil collection and filtering process, It is far more interesting than just filling up your car with diesel.

In the other hand I get to the WVO by a friend, and I find it very interesting, I think there are lots of mis information around and the whole deal of heating the oil over and over kind of defeats the idea of saving energy, I found that filtering the oil cold help to separate the fat or lard more easily, I use a home made 7500rpm computer hard drive/cooking pan centrifuge that catch up the lard and lets the oil pas trough, many of the problems with the WVO are in fact related to clog filters smoke, coking, and things around the lard itself and not the only the oil as fuel.

So far the car has run with at least 50 WVO in th tank for more than a year without any significant problem.

latitude500 · #13 11-05-2010, 03:00 PM

I would love to have my car RUN FOREVER, but I understand it has mechanical parts that are designed to wear out. It doesn’t matter what fuel you put in it, it’s just a matter of time. I personally run biodiesel and WVO with a grease car kit, and I know even if I ran nothing but diesel, it would still need a new IP. And these cars are great to convert over to wvo. But a lot of people are going to have problems if they don’t follow the rules. You’re going to need to run wvo with a kit that allows the wvo to get to 160-180 degrees and purges back the unburnt fuel back to the wvo tank when you turn off the car/truck. Your also going to need to keep the wvo and biodiesel/ diesel in two different tanks. You don’t want to blend. It’s okay to burn a little diesel in the wvo tank. But you don’t want to blend both fuels in the diesel tank. Running cold grease isn’t ever a good idea.
Secondly it’s import to understand that you are in charge of the quality control when it comes to WVO fuel. You have to make sure that your wvo is at least filtered to 5 micro and ALL of the water has been removed. These are where people get into a lot of problems. You have to dewater all wvo before it goes into your car’s wvo tank. And the wvo has to be tested with a fry pan test or other water test to make sure it’s water free. Water will destroy any IP.
It’s also a good idea to change out your motor oil more often and do an oil analyses on the motor oil and wvo you are running. I’ve seen a lot of people try to go by looking at it, or smelling it, or using a magic whatever. But unless you have some solid data to go after it’s not good to guess.
I’ve been burning wvo for 5 years now, and the largest problems I come across is owning a wvo powered car is working on older cars with 20 year old suspension, trannies, and electrical wiring. I really haven’t had any problems with wvo.
If you would like to find out more about running your car or truck of wvo visit a site like www.greasecar.com.

Good luck and be safe.

greazzer · #14 03-02-2011, 07:34 PM

I just celebrated 3 years burning WVO, and saved on average $1,800 per year, and that is about what my car cost. So, if the engine blows up tonight, I have lost nothing. Although my entire experience is nothing more than antedotal, I can tell you running a centrifuge to clean the oil is a must -- beats 1 nominal micron bags any day of the week. Also, running Elsbett Technology. Also, heat exchanger, auxillary fuel pump, and running a 2nd tank and making sure you purge the system. Starting on No.2 and ending on No.2 seems to work. Not sure I can really identify any damage to my car. Having said that, I pull the injectors and glow plugs about every 3-4 months to look for a build up of junk. None. So, even adding all the costs of a centrifuge, Elsbett Parts, et cet., I am still ahead. I would rather prematurely blow up an engine every 5 years to avoid buying more than $100 or so of No.2. You can pick up a decent engine for about $500 to $700 at the junkyard and a long weekend putting in a new engine is a small price to pay for independence from the pump. So, the real question may be whether or not a premature engine failure is worth the $7K+ in fuel savings. For me, yes. I drive a 85 300D.

sun tortise · #15 04-14-2020, 02:18 AM

Is this thread from 2011 still alive?

I've logged over 100k on well filtered WVO, UNCONVERTED, and knock on weird, no significant problems. I start with decent oil not cooked to death, let it settle for weeks or months, pour the clear layer thru a 1 micron filter bag, add about a cup of gasoline to each 4.6 gallon cubie, pour it right in the tank, and drive. In freezing weather, i will up the gasoline (10% max), and/or mix in some kerosene, and if it is really cold, run mostly kerosene or diesel. If it below about 50 deg. F, i will plug in the block heater, and also i have a magnetic heater stuck to the fuel tank that i use in cold weather. I also try to let the car warm up before taking off, especially in colder weather. In cooler weather i also keep a cubie of WVO in the house behind the woodstove and pour it in just before driving. Every few tankfuls i add some ATF, or Power service additive.

About 70,000 miles on the 1981 240D so far (it currently has a clutch problem, but i doubt that is related), and about 50,000 on my main 1985 300D. The 300D was getting a bit hard to start and smoking about 10,000 miles ago, so i cleaned the injectors, and soaked the rings for about a week in Marvel mystery oil, and now she runs great! I've run these cars on WVO from the get go, but the few times i've run diesel, i've noticed slightly more power. But i just drove the 240D 1400 miles at 70 - 75 m.p.h. mostly freeway, and 75 m.p.h. is fast enough for an old tortoise like me.

If these cars, which between them cost about $2000, died tomorrow, they have paid for them selves several times over in fuel savings, not to mention environmental impact and and pissing off the fossil fuel industry.