280se 3.5 manual transmission?

[FLYNAVY]

I am looking for a 4 speed manual transmission for the 3.5L (m116 V8) 280se. Clearly (from calling around and looking online) these transmissions were a rarity. Does anyone know where I might be able to find one? Thanks!!

[deanyel]

They made only about 130 of them worldwide in the 111 coupe. You are more likely to find one from a 107 body, i.e. 350SL, and more likely to find that in Europe, perhaps an abandoned rust bucket. There was also a few of them in the 109 chassis, i.e. 300SEL 3.5. What you are looking for is a G7627A.

[cth350]

There are two 4-speeds that bolt up to that motor according to some prior threads here. One style is a top loader (single bar connecting to the shifter), the other is a side loader, with three levers on the side.

If you need the side loader, drop me an email, I have a spare. -CTH

[Tony H]

Are you converting a auto car to manual or replacing a defective original trans?
I'm just getting my 3.5 man trans back from Mercedes Werkstatt where it's been for 9 mos being rebuilt. Some parts for these take a while to get.

[FLYNAVY]

actually, I plan on using the transmission w/ a 5.6L m117 motor and putting it into my 190e

[ctaylor738]

Believe me, I am all in favor of stuff like this, but you might consider a combination that Mercedes actually offered. I think that the flywheel will be your biggest problem because you will need to find one that fits the crank hub and that the starter can engage. Before you start, you should also make sure that the crank hub can take a pilot bushing. Since the 5.6 was never offered with a manual trans, MB may have not performed this extra machining.

[cth350]

Ah, the short answer is that you need a bellhousing. the alloy and cast iron motors have different rear diameters. A 3.5 ready 4-speed will set you back about 1,000$.

Why would you want to stuff all that into a 190E. Even if you had a 190e 16-valve, it's still a W201 chassis car. Small, compact and kinda homely. Add a big motor and it will be nose heavy and drive poorly, if at all.

If you have to do a motor swap, either start with a more cool car like a W107 car or an older cooler sedan.

-CTH

[FLYNAVY]

Originally Posted by cth350

Ah, the short answer is that you need a bellhousing. the alloy and cast iron motors have different rear diameters. A 3.5 ready 4-speed will set you back about 1,000$.

Why would you want to stuff all that into a 190E. Even if you had a 190e 16-valve, it's still a W201 chassis car. Small, compact and kinda homely. Add a big motor and it will be nose heavy and drive poorly, if at all.

If you have to do a motor swap, either start with a more cool car like a W107 car or an older cooler sedan.

-CTH

so you are saying that the trans from an m116 will not bolt up to an m117? I was under the impression after talking to an MB tech that the 2 motors shared the same physical (exterior) dimensions. Is the bolt pattern just different?

as for putting it into a w201, I guess I don't really have an explanation other than liking the car and having an interest in doing things that haven't been done. The R107 is a great car in its own way, but that is not really what I am after with this project. IMHO, with tasteful body modifications (see AMG's styling) it isn't homely, and the size really doesn't bother me. Its certainly no classic MB (and likely will never be save the Evo I/II), but cool in my eyes nonetheless. I do plan on starting a w115 project (see cooler sedan ) but that will be a little bit down the road.....and I'll need to get a hold of a good R129 SL600 drivetrain first

The engine weight was definitely a concern for me, but I have been told on numerous occaisons (sorry, haven't actually compared the two motors on a scale or anything, so I am relying on others' input) that the alloy m117 block is actually a few kg lighter than the m103 block.....whether the difference in distribution of mass will degrade handling remains to be seen. I daily drive a C43 however, and it handles incredibly well (better than any other 4-dr sedan I have driven) with no hint of nose-heaviness. Considering the similarities in size and chassis design between the w201 and w202, I would say that a good comparison can be made. I believe that the m113 block is slightly lighter than the m117 (if my memory serves me correctly), but it still shows that a big V8 can be thrown into a little sedan without sacrificing handling. Also, AMG did build a few 6.0L quad-cam m117 powered w201s (marketed as the "mallet").....I will assume they built it to handle as well as go straight. Anyways, just some thoughts about the feasibility of my project....please, feel free to comment, as I need all the help that I can get

Anyhow, thanks guys for all the help/feedback....I really appreciate it, and your vast knowledge is a huge asset to my project

[FLYNAVY]

Originally Posted by ctaylor738

Believe me, I am all in favor of stuff like this, but you might consider a combination that Mercedes actually offered. I think that the flywheel will be your biggest problem because you will need to find one that fits the crank hub and that the starter can engage. Before you start, you should also make sure that the crank hub can take a pilot bushing. Since the 5.6 was never offered with a manual trans, MB may have not performed this extra machining.

yes, I am already planning on getting a custom flyweel made for this....unless by some crazy luck the m116 flywheel actually works w/ the m117 (unlikely). My original plan was to use a BMW e39 M5 6-spd trans, so I would say that this will at least require a little less work and possibly be a little less expensive

[cth350]

It's not a 116 vs 117 issue. It's iron vs alloy. There were two generations of M116/117 v8 motors. The cast iron blocks were bored to 3.5l and 4.5l respectively. The light alloy blocks were first released with 3.8l & 5.0l displacement, and then 4.2l & 5.6l. Not sure why they kept the same motor designation for both generations of the family, they're sure different in many respects.

A common modification is to find a suitable series Tremec and adapt the bellhousing. Adapter plates for the flywheel have been done before too.

-CTH

[FLYNAVY]

so maybe this is a dumb question, but I'm still not quite sure what you mean about the difference between the 2 families. Are the cast iron blocks different externally from the alloy blocks? (I assume you meant that there are both cast as well as alloy 117 and 116 blocks)

also, do you happen to know which Tremec box would be suitable, or have any more info about this? Obviously that would be the cheapest route, since those transmissions are pretty common in the States. Thanks for the help

[Tomguy]

The m116 and m117 blocks are identical externally except the m117 is 30mm taller than the m116 for a longer stroke. A 3.5 manual transmission would fit on a 4.5 no problem.

However, when MB changed the blocks on the m116 and m117's from cast iron to aluminum, they made the bellhousings MUCH smaller. An m116 aluminum-block engine has a noticably smaller bellhousing. Basically, for what it would cost for a 3.5's 4-speed manual and then what you'd need to adapt it to your aluminum-block engine, you can get a new, cheaper 5-speed tranny that isn't so rare and have the modifications done for that instead.

[fever]

I've had my 71 European 28o see 3.5 for 17 years. It's a 4 speed manual. It's risen in value several multiples but I knew that would happen and am still jacked I own and drive this car. Have no interest in selling. Maybe I'd reconsider if it hit 150ish. Maybe. I love it that much.

[Frank Reiner]

Although the last post on this thread that addressed the matter of bell housings and bolt patterns of M116/117 blocks was 15 years ago, it may still serve all of us to correct some of the assertions that have been made over the years.

1) M116 and M117 blocks have been cast in both iron and aluminum.
2) For purposes of discussing transmission attachment, the bell housing bolt pattern on all four variations (iron M116, alum. M116, iron M117, alum. M117) are the same, with one difference: the top two bolts of the aluminum versions are moved laterally 10mm.
3) When the 450SL 5.0 was put into production with an aluminum M117 it was equipped with a 722.006, not a 722.3. That 722.0 transmission was fitted to the aluminum block with an intermediate plate just as it was to the iron block. The intermediate plate was machined with slotted top holes, and provisions for plate-to-block dowels for the aluminum block. It was, in fact, a universal intermediate plate usable with either iron or aluminum blocks.
4) Any bell housing/transmission package that was bolted to a 3.5 M116 will bolt to any other M116/117 engine when equipped with an intermediate plate.
5) An intermediate plate that was originally supplied with an iron block engine can be modified for use with an aluminum block engine.

[Tony H]

I have my T5 5spd conversion pretty much ready to go except for the clutch release bearing which I plan on using a hydraulic bearing. With the 3.27 rear axle 60mph rpms will be under 2K and tighter 1-4 gear spacing.