Dear all,
What are the differences OTHER than the face lift, steering wheel and instrument cluster?

1. Which is more reliable?
2. Driving characteristics of both?
3. More friendly city driving?
4. The cost of upkeep on both?
5. Which engine is better, the I-6 or the V-6 and which one is smoother and quieter? Which engine has more power?
6. Fuel economy of both cars?
7. Do both require synthetic oil?

Thanks!

1) Get the newest one you can afford.
2) The 2000 should have less bugs in it than the 1997.
3) The I6 was prone to leaking - the V6 is an excellent engine.
4) Upkeep will be the same.
5) The 2000 will get better mpg.

I've talked to two mechanics here in Houston who are Mercedes-only and have been in business for over 25 years each. When I asked this same question to them, both of them (without hesitation) said "get the V6". Also, the V6 will have the 5-speed transmission - another plus.

__________________
- Brian


1989 500SEL Euro
1966 250SE Cabriolet
1958 BMW Isetta 600

POS, Thanks for the reply!
Also, if this has been discussed before than could someone post the link to that thread please. I have tried to search myself but have come up empty.
Furthermore, I know that some members have both of these cars and it would be great to get a write-up comparing the two different w210s.

The two major differences between the '97 and '00 are the engines, and the vehicle electronics. The M104 in-line six is arguably one of the best gasoline engines produced by MB. It's got great torque and is very DIY friendly. I wouldn't let the head gasket issue scare you away from the '97, as long as the car is in good shape. The M112 V-6 is a good engine as well, but like the M104, has it's own inherent issues. The most serious, IMHO, is the possibility that it may require a complete tear-down and re-ring at higher mileage, due to oil consumption. I've seen plenty of well maintained M112's come in with stuck/worn piston rings. MB will usually help out with the cost of the repair, as long as there is proof of maintenance and the mileage is less than 100K. After that, it can get pretty expensive.

The differences between the electrical systems are like night and day. The '97 is a pretty simple, non-networked (almost) system. Anyone who can read a wiring diagram and use a multi-meter should be able to diagnose most problems that occur. The '00 however, is another story. Just about every accessory (seats, windows, sunroof, instrumentation, central locking, interior lighting, etc....) is controlled via networking. To put it simply, there is no direct electrical connection between the switch and the consumer. This can make diagnosing electrical faults nearly impossible for even the bravest DIY'er.

Lastly, both the '97 and the '00 are equipped with the 722.6 five speed transmission.

How much, approximately, does a 112 motor "complete tear-down and re-ring" cost? I've never heard of such a thing on a 104 motor.

True point - I'm officially corrected. 1997 was the first year of the 5-speed.

__________________
- Brian


1989 500SEL Euro
1966 250SE Cabriolet
1958 BMW Isetta 600

Is it just me or does anybody else out there find this scheme absolutely absurd? Why in the world do we need 1) a computer interface module on the door switch 2) a computer network and its associated protocols and software to transmit the requested function to 3) another computer interface module to receive/decipher the request from the computer module mentioned in #1 and then send the appropriate voltage to activate seat motor? Why is this scheme better than 1) a switch with a wire that sends current directly to the seat motor? Does anybody know if Honda, Toyota or even GM use computer networked components to control a power seat?

I just got off the phone with my father, he is a long term Mercedes-Benz owner but he is fed up with electronic glitches on his 2005 CDI. He is trading it in on a Acura TL and says he will never again buy another Mercedes-Benz product.

I really don't know what Mercedes is up to. My father too was a Mercedes owner and fan who crossed over to Lexus. My mother was a Mercedes owner who crossed over to Acura. I too was a Mercedes owner and Fan who did the ultimate slap to Mercedes by switching over to a Chevy Suburban. If Mercedes doesn't get its act together and get some Japanese on board to help design and make RELIABLE products while still keeping the German feel solidity of the car they will pretty much loose Mercedes customers in the thousands every year although Lexus and Acura won't be complaining while scooping up all these customers and making them very happy with their NOW superior and more reliable products. Product loyalty can only go so far and MB has stretched this trust pretty thin.
I do not believe that I will be buying a new Mercedes now anytime soon until Mercedes gets back to building cars not profits as it did in the past especially in the 70's and 80's. Boy MB put out some great cars back then and those cars REALLY HAD SOME CHARACTER and really did stand out from the crowd. Don't you agree?
Even though MB has gone down the tubes so much, it is still always nice to have a Mercedes. That is why I am looking for a pre-owned one. Oh yeah, it could never be my daily driver because I am sure it would let me down so I will make sure I will have another car at all times while I have a Mercedes in the garage!
I know I have said pretty negative things but even then I love Mercedes. "It's just a Mercedes thaing, you wouldn't understand!, lol"
I hope Mercedes execs are reading these posts........

The cost depends on what we find, once the cylinder heads are removed. In most cases, the piston rings are the only "hard parts" that need replacing. In this case, we do the job without removing the engine. We replace the rod bearings as well, since we've got them out, but they're usually in pretty good shape. Depending on mileage, we may also recommend replacing the valve stem seals as a pre-caution. It only adds a couple hundred dollars to an already large bill, but we leave the final decision up to the owner.

Occasionally, we find severe scoring of the cylinder walls. In this case, we replace the engine block, with pre-fitted pistons. The crankshaft and connecting rods are re-used. The rod, main, and thrust bearings must be replaced as well. Before we tear down any M112/113's though, we listen to it carefully. Sometimes, a slight knocking noise can be heard from the engine. It's not very noticeable, but it has a very distinct sound. Once you hear it, it's easily recognizable. This is the tell-tale sound made when the cylinder walls are scored. When we hear this noise, we inspect the cylinders with an articulated borescope. If we find cylinder wall damage, we can give the owner the bad news, but keep the diagnosis cost down.

FWIW, I think the reason you've never heard of this on an M104 is because it's extremely rare for them to have bottom-end problems. I've never seen a 104 engine failure that wasn't caused by over-heating, or oil starvation.


Believe it or not, in many ways networking can actually simplify things, from a diagnostic standpoint, just not for a DIY'er. Networked MB's use only a fraction of the wires that would be needed for a non-networked car to perform the same functions. The various control modules can be accessed via SDS, and the wiring, switches, motors, etc. can be easily checked, without any unnecessary dis-assembly. It also allows MB to keep parts costs down by reducing the number of variants of similar parts. For example, only one PSE locking pump is available for every S/W210 worldwide. It can be programmed for the particular options/equipment at the time of installation. If not for networking, MB would need dozens of part numbers for basically the same part, thereby increasing (at least according to MB) the cost of the part.

I can certainly understand the benefits from a conceptual point of view but it seems to me that by adopting the MB scheme you have increased the complexity of the overall control scheme by at least two orders of magnitude.

As a software person I'm also concerned about the subject of software integration. Many of MB's problems of late seem to me to be eerily similar to defective software issues that many Windows users face on an almost daily basis. While its certainly nice for a tech to be able to test individual networked components via SDS activations how does the tech troubleshoot highly intermittent problems that are most likely caused by software glitches? In the case of my fathers car he had many electrical glitches and when he took it into the dealer they would invariably report "every things fine - no problems that we can see"

I've also been following a thread where Steve B points out that there are some failures of interior components that can actually "short out" the entire interior CAN. In such a case NOTHING driven by the interior CAN will work. Very nice.

I'm still curious to know if ANY other automotive manufacturer has adopted the Mercedes-Benz "Hey, lets control the cigarette lighter via a computer network" school of design. Do you know if anyone else does it this way?

I still love the way Mercedes-Benz cars look, feel and drive. My 2000 C230 Kompressor is an absolute joy and I look forward to every trip I take in it, short or long.

That said if I didn't have a shop with a lift and about 30K worth of tools I'd never consider owning a newer Mercedes that was outside of the factory warranty period. I can certainly understand why my father (and apparently many others) have decided to switch over to another brand. It's sad.

Thanks, very helpful. Can you put a dollar range on it - best case to worst case - just curious.

Count my dad amongst those who have jumped off the MB ship. He has a 2001 E320 Special Ed. It’s special alright. 24k on the odo and the seats are wrinkled and stretched. The AC will blow cold or hot depending on the mood of the car. The Trany is making strange noises when cold. Seat motor went out already. It had the wrong engine mounts in it from the production line (at least that’s what MB said) and the list goes on. I think his car may have been made on a Fri afternoon at quitting time.

He has a hearing in a few weeks with MB and some lawyers. My dad is trying o get MB to buy it back. He bought a 1999 Infinity Q45 at action which he says are out shines the MB. Not as good on gas but at least it is drivable.

__________________
Sent from an agnostic abacus

2014 C250 21,XXX my new DD ** 2013 GLK 350 18,000 Wife's new DD**

- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Sorry to hear than.

This is EXACTLY why I just traded my E320 in on a brand new Infinity G Series. I dumped thousands of dollars into that car just over the past year and I only put about 5,000 miles on the odometer. Finally, when the transmission began to show signs of failure, I decided to dump it. It was probably the best decision that I've made in years.

The Infinity rides better, handles better, has less road noise and can literally run circles around a Benz in accelleration. Fuel economy is better, there are no squeaks or rattles, the ac blows hard and cold and the AM/FM reception is excellent. Life is good after Mercedes-Benz.

Chris