Hi there, I'm posting from London, England.

A couple of years ago I bought a 1993 320CE coupe and it's been great, my first Merc. I love it. I don't drive much so was looking forward to a few good years in it. However, recently I had an oil leak - oil reddish in colour and also there was a high pitched sound coming from the car, especially when I put it in reverse gear.

Took it to a Merc garage (no-one else would touch it, thought it was a gearbox problem) and I've now had some very bad news as follows:

They can't tell where the leak is from, but first thing to do is change a rubber seal which costs £5, but will cost about £850 in labour to do! And IF I do that, they may find that it wasn't that after all and I need a new pump, which will mean they'll have to open the thing up again that will cost me about £2000! (Of course, I could go for that option first).

BUT they're saying that even if we did these things and fixed the oil leak, they may then find that the gearbox has been ruined by me driving for half an hour with not enough oil (i.e. to the garage). Apparently you can't work out if the box is OK until it's full of oil again and you can't fill it with oil until the leak is fixed... On the way there it was certainly slipping a bit.

That car is only worth about £4500! it's done 160,000 miles.

I feel really stuck. I could spend £850 and, if I'm lucky, fix the leak. But if it doesn't fix it, I need to spend another £2000, and even then, I may find the gearbox has gone anyway! aarrgghh!

Does anyone have any other ideas or any advice! It seems I could end up spending more than the car is worth. And I don't have that money to spend anyway! I could spend £2800 and still have a car which is virtually worthless.

Any advice gratefully received from anyone! The only other garage I could take it to would be another, more expensive Mercedes garage! I'm in South West London. I'm sure the garage are being honest but I do need a second opinion.

Please help. Thanks very much. I'd be happy to call anyone back wherever they are. I'm on 44 (0) 20 8607 9401.

Best regards.

Dave

Take out the transmission dipstick and smell it to see if it smells burnt. Compare it with a new bottle at a parts store. If there is a big difference, you may have a problem.

Next: With the car in Park (It is automatic, right) put the car into Reverse with your foot on the brake and see how long it takes before you feel the car go into reverse. It should only take about 1 second.

Is the gearbox topped up with fluid and yet not overflowed? If it is down, top it up and take a short drive. Start in the lowest gear (2 on autos) and then move it to 3rd, and then Drive. Then shift down through the gears. (Don't overspeed the engine!) This will give you some indication of the trans condition. IF the gears are clunky, if the car slips alot, if they won't go into gear at all.

Have a qualified trans shop (save $$ over the dealer) change and flush your trans fluid for you and inspect the fluid for metal particles. If there are particles, that is a particulary bad sign. If not, your trans may not be that bad.

If saving money is your main concern, you could try a good-quality transmission additive which can stop leaks and stop slips. I would reccommend Bars-Leaks or Lucas Transmission additive. (I am from the States and don't know if these products are available in the UK but similar products must be) These additives have been known to keep a trans alive and fine for years. I take it you car has the m104 3.2 Liter I-6 DOHC 24Valve engine. I have the same engine in my '95 E320 wagon. This engine should last forever except for the head gasket leak. Some examples have done over 400,000 miles without a rebuild! Unfortunantly the trans isn't quite as strong. There is also some type of adjustment available on the vaccuum transmission. On my car, the trans sometimes shifts smoothly in certain gears, and in others it shifts very firmly. Sometimes when taking off quickly the car will rev up and then "slam" into gear. Sometimes under hard kickdown the RPMS will soar to 5,000 before the trans engages the engine to the lower gear. I think most of this is the sluggish vacuum nature of the trans. We had the fluid changed by an MB Master tech independent for about $150 US. The car has exhibited all these trans symptoms since we purchased the car with only 39,000 miles on it.

I wouldn't spend the money on an "iffy" repair before they guaranteed me for a set amount of cash the car would be fixed.
Good luck.

__________________
________________________
2002 Mercedes-Benz E320 4Matic
1995 Mercedes-Benz E320 Wagon
2005 Land Rover LR3 V8 SE
1999 Audi A8 4.2L quattro

Excellent advice from Troverman. If the trans is a goner, I'd think seriously about a used trans from a junkyard (breaker yard?).

Best of luck,

__________________
Norm in NJ
Next oil change at 230,000miles

Since you are talking trans and not engine, I can't see why they need to guess about the leak. I also don't see why you can't put fluid in a leaking trans to see if the trans functions correctly. I would either get a second opinion from another shop that not only works on MBs but knows MBs. I'd also check with a trans shop that is very familiar with MBs. The sound you describe sounds like front pump problems. If the bushings on the input shaft are worn badly, the front seal is working its tail off trying to keep the oil in. Is the leak at the front of the trans? Best diagnoses I can give from way across the pond.

Good luck,
Peter

__________________
Auto Zentral Ltd.

Take out the transmission dipstick and smell it to see if it smells burnt. Compare it with a new bottle at a parts store. If there is a big difference, you may have a problem.

OK, I'll give this a try.

Next: With the car in Park (It is automatic, right) put the car into Reverse with your foot on the brake and see how long it takes before you feel the car go into reverse. It should only take about 1 second.

OK. Trouble is, it won't much oil in it now but I'll give it a go.

Is the gearbox topped up with fluid and yet not overflowed? If it is down, top it up and take a short drive. Start in the lowest gear (2 on autos) and then move it to 3rd, and then Drive. Then shift down through the gears. (Don't overspeed the engine!) This will give you some indication of the trans condition. IF the gears are clunky, if the car slips alot, if they won't go into gear at all.

The garage tried this but said the oil waas coming out so fast they couldn't do it long enough for it to be a proper test...


Have a qualified trans shop (save $$ over the dealer) change and flush your trans fluid for you and inspect the fluid for metal particles. If there are particles, that is a particulary bad sign. If not, your trans may not be that bad.

OK , will try to find that kind of service here. Getting the car there may be a prob! but yes, would be great to know if the trans was OK, or at least, if it definitely wasn't.

If saving money is your main concern, you could try a good-quality transmission additive which can stop leaks and stop slips. I would reccommend Bars-Leaks or Lucas Transmission additive. (I am from the States and don't know if these products are available in the UK but similar products must be) These additives have been known to keep a trans alive and fine for years. I take it you car has the m104 3.2 Liter I-6 DOHC 24Valve engine.

yes. and I'm sure there must be similar products here. If I put some of that in now might that help the garage to test the trans again?

I have the same engine in my '95 E320 wagon. This engine should last forever except for the head gasket leak. Some examples have done over 400,000 miles without a rebuild!

one of the reasons I bought a Merc! I thought I'd be driving it for years! :-)

Unfortunantly the trans isn't quite as strong. There is also some type of adjustment available on the vaccuum transmission. On my car, the trans sometimes shifts smoothly in certain gears, and in others it shifts very firmly. Sometimes when taking off quickly the car will rev up and then "slam" into gear. Sometimes under hard kickdown the RPMS will soar to 5,000 before the trans engages the engine to the lower gear. I think most of this is the sluggish vacuum nature of the trans. We had the fluid changed by an MB Master tech independent for about $150 US. The car has exhibited all these trans symptoms since we purchased the car with only 39,000 miles on it.

Actually, you've reminded me of another thing. Before this problem, for the first few minutes after starting and driving the car, the gears were a bit sticky in that it wouldn't move up to second that quickly - I'd be wheeling along at about 20 mph still in 1st gear, sounding a bit strained. Then it quickly seemed to warm up by the time I got to the next street and would work normally, clicking in pretty quickly. Is this normal or was that maybe the symptom of something?

I wouldn't spend the money on an "iffy" repair before they guaranteed me for a set amount of cash the car would be fixed.

mmmm that's what I'm thinking.

Good luck.

Thanks very much. Also, further to the above, do you think that it may simply be the seal, or does it sound like the pump has gone? What happened was , one day I turned the car on and there it was, this high pitched whirring sound. Car was driving fine though. It was only 1 or 2 short trips after that, that I saw the oil on the ground. Then I went to the garage and on the way gears were slipping.

I really appreciate your help Trover - any additional thoughts on the above would be much appreciated. Thanks to Norm and Peter too! It feels great to be getting this independent advice.

best wishes to all
Dave, London

from: MERCEDES-BENZ E-Class Owner's Bible 1986-1995

Problen 722.4 transmission ?
Whistling noise when shifting into reverse.

Possible cause, suggested repair
Noise emanates from bore in intermediate plate that allows filling of disc-brake B3. Remove valve body and intermediate plate. Chamfer throttle bore on valve body side. Ensure that release valve B3 is correctly seated in valve body.(See MB service information.)

Just a thought.
Good luck.

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

In my experience, the only places that really understand these transmissions are the places that rebuild them. Given that the trans has 160K on it, you might as well go for a rebuilt unit or a used one. You can shop for both, and most transmission shops will install it for you.

If you go used, then be sure that the front seal is replaced before it is installed.

__________________
Chuck Taylor
Falls Church VA
'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe

appreciate your time and consideration guys...

Lots of slip on shifting, erratic hard shifts, and general slipping are signs it's toast.

A note for future reference -- ANY slipping or "flare" -- when the engine speeds up a lot between gears -- is VERY detrimental to automatic transmissions. The clutchs are not meant to slide, they are meant to be engaged completely or not engaged at all. The friction material (quite literally paper most of the time) will burn, crumble, and fall off the steel backing, leaving you with steel plates rubbing together. They won't stop moving against each other, like the do with the friction material in place, and the fluid scorches, losing it's normal lubricating qualities. Eventually the gears will be damaged, too, from lack of lubrication and floating debris. Any time you get slipping or erratic shifts, you need to get the problem diagnosed and fixed AT ONCE -- if you wait, you will require a replacement transmission.

A leak so bad the oil won't stay in long enough to test is a real problem, but if it's coming out the pump, you need a rebuild tranny, I'd not bother trying to fix it. The usuall front seal/pump leak is a quart or so a week, max oil leakage. Running right out on the ground is a hole in the case or a blown actuator cover gasket.

A transmission repair shop will give you much better guidance.

Peter

__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

Which transmission does yours have? The replies you receive could be dependent on this information.

In Australia all 124 coupes with M104 engine (300CE-24, 320CE & E320C) got the 5-speed 722.5 which has a poor reputation for reliability. I know in other markets (eg. UK & USA) this transmission was optional with the more reliable 4-speed 722.3 being standard fitment.

__________________
107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.

It's the 4-speed. This is driving me nuts as I only do about 6000 miles a year and I thought I was in for many years of luxury, but cheap, motoring!

Thanks a lot

Dave

Planeboy,

If they have to remove and open up the tranny to replace the seal, you might want to think about replacing the B3 reverse clutch at the same time. This is a common weak point on 722.3 transmissions (and perhaps later ones also - the older 722.0 to 722.2 have an externally-adjustable reverse band instead of the clutch). The symptom of the B3 reverse clutch starting to wear out is progressively longer times for the car to engage into reverse. Eventually the car won't engage at all, unless you "blip" the gas a bunch of times, and then it fails completely (no reverse engagement at all).

The rest of this transmission (i.e. forward gears) is usually pretty robust (other than the question of possible damage when you were low on fluid). I had the reverse gear problem show up at 169,000 miles. The tranny shop removed and opened up the transmission, thought that the rest of the transmission looked pretty good, and so just replaced the B3 clutch, and also the main seals while they were at it. If I thought I was going to keep the car for many years, they would probably have advised me to do a full re-build, or just to get a rebuilt tranny installed, but that would have doubled the bill.

Even if they can't road-test the car until they replace the seals, they should still be able to do a decent job of visually inspecting the open transmission for wear and signs of damage.

Bob Schleicher
1991 420SEL - now with 174,000 miles.

Any truly competent transmission rebuilder shop will test the transmission on a dynomometer stand to ensure proper shifting properties