It is true that they are high quality cars. They feel as if they have been carved out of an ingot of steel.

However, just to get a discussion going, I am throwing forward an hypothesis. I see so many Mercedes with unbeleivable miles on them. Leads you to believe these cars are indestructible.

My hypothesis is that owners who buy them have a higher initial money outlay on them. So, the owners take care of them better. Regular oil changes...regular check ups...follow all maintenance schedules etc...etc...Why, you have to change the brake fluid every year or so to keep the caliper cylinders from pitting. In fact, owners are more likely to spend serious $$$ in getting a car back on the road while other smaller names may have been junked.

I recently junked my 88 Subaru GL - XT. The engine was running great. But I had bought the car used for $ 2300 with 64K miles on it. By the time I junked it, it had 180,000 miles on it. I had to junk it because snow had eaten away the entire underbody and it was not worth keeping it. My buddy has a '91 Toyota Camry with 199K miles on it. Looks good and still running strong. He knows nothing about cars so the car is neglected a lot.

Mercedes have had some major issues with their cars. Look at the 83 380SE/SL which had a single row timing chain. The chain could break and destroy all the valves / head. Even with the double row chains in the V8's, the chain is guided on plastic guide rails...prone to failure and then big $$ repairs. Unless you replace them every 100,000 or so miles.

Take the 1986, 1987 6 cylinder 603.xx diesel engines. Heads were prone to cracking if slightly overheated. And on top of that, they went ahead and put in a radiator with a plastic tank and a fragile neck. So, the neck could break and loose coolant and the engine temperature could rise without the temperature gage registering it. You then have a bad head which costs $ 4000 to replace. They redesigned the heads many times but still stuck to Aluminium heads. If only they had just changed the material to cast iron - you would have had an engine as indestructible as the 617's. Vacuum pumps...they could fail at 100K miles and lead to expensive repairs. And if the EGR valve sent soot down to the cylinders, there was a possibility of ending up with bent rods.

The diesels on the 350 series were even worse. The rod on Cylinder # 1 would fail and destroy the block.

AC evaporators ...and ACC controls...a source of constant complaints! VDO gages....odometer breaking down was a frequent complaint! Sunroof failure...loose steering boxes causing frames to crack....the virbration dampers in 210 models failing and taking out the covers/sumps....the list is fairly long.

This is not to say I would not buy another Mercedes. On the contrary, I am seriously thinking about a nice 300SDL....perhaps I am a glutton for punishment !

Amit

Aye, there must be some mystic quality about MB because they are still selling very well at a very high markup. I agree that the up-keep is the major expenditure of keeping a MB. If only they can be run to the ground(with little maintenance by many owners) like Honda and Toyota. But I guess MB has no intention of matching Toyota in reliability because, selling not very reliable parts, is a major revenue to MB and its dealers.

I have an SDL and it hasn't given me any serious problems since the day I owned it. It had 225K miles on it, and I have driven it about 75K miles since. There is nothing wrong with buying an older MB. Just make sure the car has good records, a straight body, a clean interior, and it runs exceptionally well. My car exhibited all four of these traits, and that's why I bought it.

The 350SD had a brand new engine with modifed connecting rods put in it, with all the paperwork showing what MB did underhood. Even replaced the turbocharger! All that has happened with this car, so far with me, was a bad EGR valve. Had it with 190K, now have 260K miles.

The 300SE I bought was one of very few SE's I'd call peppy. It sounded strong, too. All books and records, back to the day it was first signed off. Body was straight as an arrow, and it only had 130K miles on it. No problems, but I haven't driven it that far either.

The 560SL recently had the chain replaced, so it shouldn't have any problems going 200K miles. I probably won't drive it for great distances, as this car is mostly garged. Same deal as the last cars, with all records stamped at the dealer. No problems, yet; too new.

The E420, doesn't really qualify as an old car, I think, but it came with complete books and records, too. Driver's side xenon headlight assembly went.$$ Ouch $$! @ 91K miles.

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1987 300SDL (324000)

1986 Porsche 951 (944 Turbo) (166000)

1978 Porsche 924 (99000)

1996 Nissan Pathfinder R50 (201000)

Old MB's are fairly expensive to repair and can be relatively "quirky", but something sure does keep us coming back for more! All said... I love my MB's.

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1960 MB 190Db w/ full sunroof
1985 Toyota Pickup
2006 Honda Odyssey EXL R&N
2001 VW Jetta GLS TDI

I love my Mercedes, but....

One of the guys I work with has a Ford F150 pickup with 400K miles. The only repairs necessary were a wheel hub, suspension redo, and valve job. He travels from radar site to radar site for us and has circumnavigated the U.S. several times.

Another guy that works for us is the original owner of a '76 chevy pickup (short bed, step side). He's got 500k miles on it and has never done anything at all--nada---nothing except convert to R134 since it was new. Of course, he also gets about 8 mpg these days, but that is real durability.

Sholin

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What else, '73 MB 280 SEL (Lt Blue)
Daily driver: '84 190D 2.2 5 spd.

Agree with spock here - The number of seemingly terribly neglected W123 and W124 estates seen cruising around on farm tracks and city high streets in England is a testament, no similar age car rivals it.


As for timing chains, I don't know what most American cars have, but most in England have belts, which require changing usually somewhere between 40,000 - 80,000 miles. They commonly delight owners by breaking before the specified change mileage, too.


N.B. truck references- remember, truck components are designed for higher mileages. Our family has a 1989 Mercedes truck with I think 550,000 kms (341k miles)...

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190E's:
2.5-16v 1990 90,000m Astral Silver
2.0E 8v 1986 107,000m Black 2nd owner
http://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall.jpghttp://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall2.jpg

- thread with all the listed mechanical issues, that are so well known.

I would like to hear some design arguments to some of them.
For instance, why would MB use plastic pieces inside a V8 in the 126 bodies of the late 80's. Surely weight and cost considerations couldn't be the reason.

As to the question of MB's being quality cars I do believe they are generally good cars but with their fair share of issues.

One ting I gog tired of with the S500 -96 that we had from 2000 to this spring, was the continuing front wheel vibration issue.

MB even bought us new tires on the starmarked warranty after some 6 months of complaining/wheel balancing etc. It never went totally away and I have to admit that if I had paid the original 100000+ dollars in -96, I would probably have feel really taken, if plagued by the issues surrounding the 140 bodies. We sold it a year before the warranty expired. I do miss the s500 alot but the 560 sel we have now does make up for it somewhat!

Another issue I have heard of again and again is smells and fumes inside the cabin. It amazes me that such an expensive car can have such basic problems associated with it?

Does anyone know of any of the design decisions resulting in these problem areas? That would be interesting to hear!

Jari

Strange, the 95 S500 I have well, it's coupe, is smooth as butter and don't have the front wheel vib problem you had at any speed. All I know is that the tires have to been balance very precisely. The same with my 86 560SEL, very smooth too. yeah, there were many issues but most were common wear and tear and some minor quality problems.

- cuz I did kind of.

I loved the way the big sedan smoothed out speed and breaking. Sometimes I couldn't help but cornering hard and let the big car sort out the side forces. Perhaps that would be a problem calling for often wheel balancing???

Q: does anybody know why the V8 in the 126 bodies had plastic pieces for guides???


Jari

Speaking of design decisions, the 603 head is notorious for failing. MB redesigned the head at least 4 times.

Why do you think they still stuck to alumimium. They could have gone to cast iron and had a much more refined brother for the indestructible 617 engines.

Surely weight could not have been the only consideration. THese cars are heavy anyway. WHat is a few more pounds.

Amit

Gees, if it weren't for me always having to do something to my beloved Mercedes Benz vehicles, I would get bored.

I to must be a glutton for punishment !

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1994 E500 (MY SUNDAY DRIVER)
1993 190E SPORTLINE LE W/ M104 SWAP
1997 C230
2002 ML320
2000 BMW 528I (WIFEY'S CAR)

"Excuses are crutches for the unfounded."

When it comes to the newer model years. Keep one thing in mind. The more junk you pack into them, the more likely you are going to have something to fail. I've noticed this more with the dropping overall customer quality ratings via Consumer Retorts, and that ilk of ratings magazines.

I'm not sure when MB started using computers to design things, but the name of the game nowadays is to only design the product to the limit of the service that it's expected to see. Gone are the days when the designers built things with a tolerance to insure that their products met basic guidelines, as with the old iron 240D and 300D engines.

Even with all of the fussing that my old Benzes require, I play with them with the understanding that I'm working on vehicles with ages that are measured in decades. With the '04 model year getting started, my Euro is now officially 20 years old, and the 59 190Db is now 45 years old. These are manmade pieces of equipment that has hundreds of moving parts, all which wear with time. Because of my general amount of time that I have to tinker, my old Benzes are not daily drivers, and I cannot expect them to be with their age, and time requirements to keep them as such.

The rewards for keeping them alive though is well worth it. There is just something special about how the cars feel driving them.

One side effect of being the "car guy" in my group of friends/neighbours is that I am often dragged along to look at used cars.

Recently I went with a friend to look at a late model Toyota Corolla, but with "higher" miles = 145,000km's (90K-miles) for a 2000.

The car ran great. Started right up, idled nicely. All the stuff worked (power windows, locks, cruise, air, CD) and the automatic shifted pretty well.

The Corolla is simple and it's designed for reliability, nothing more.

Then I drove it. I would chew my arm off before I'd own that car. The steering was the definition of numb and totally devoid of feel. The suspension sucked and control was poor. We took one of my favourite on-ramps that the C230 can take at 160km/h. 120 in the MB is barely noticable. The Corolla was heaved over in an under-steering mess at 100. I had to back it down to 80km/h. Even at that speed, the car bobbed around (in "reconditioning" it has new struts and other bits, so not worn) and felt unsafe to me.

Then onto the freeway. The road has some "waves" that are good sized dips. I don't bother slowing in the Benz for them (or in the Subie for that matter). The Corolla ran out of travel and I ended up having to drive very carefully. What a nuisance.

Okay, the Corolla was half the price of the C230. And it does what it was designed to do very well. But, if driving enjoyment is anywhere on your list, buy a used Benz and bite the maintenace/repair bullet.

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John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

Blackmercedes,

I agree with you about the Corolla...Bullet Proof. I have 180,000+ on mine..it's like a Timex. I don't drive it anymore..it just sits in the garage covered and waxed. I bought mine brandnew in 1986 with 8 or 11 miles on it. Still love the car!!!

But on the other hand it does not ride like the E500. Here's the pic of the Corolla before it left CA on the way to WA.

Attached Thumbnails

 

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Make it a great day!
Jay E.

E55 '00 (Silver)
....SOLD

E500 '94 (Pearl Black)
...love my E500 so much!

Toyota FX-16 GTS '87 (Very Red)
...stored in my garage

Audi 4000CS Quattro '87 (Alpine White)
...Totalled

Mitsubushi Montero '91 (Blue)
...my daily ride