The Gun Thread

[johnjzjz]

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton , Colorado , was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out f or answers.

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.

"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter . I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended.. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.

I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.


Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!



" Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational
systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your
own heart before casting the first stone!

My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm?

Other than an attempt to stuff religion down people's throats, what does this screed have to do with anything?

- Peter.

So does this guy want the government to start making people go to church? I don't understand. And what heritage is being taken away? So this guy wants the government to start making people go to church so he can feel better? Take away others freedom to choose not to go? Great idea. And how is that going to solve any problems? More importantly who cares what this guy thinks. This is just like celebrities going in front of congress and suddenly they are "experts". Not to discount this mans obvious pain.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by johnjzjz

....Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves.

....Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence.

....Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!

The man raises many good points, but his argument becomes self defeating when he becomes the accuser. Performing the very act of condemnation that he is decrying.

There are many, very good schools that offer a faith based approach to education. He was able to choose that option for his children, but did not. If history has taught us anything, it is that religion has the potential to be the greatest polarizing force ever conceived by man, and the greatest destructive force as well. As a nation, it is our removal of religion from government that has allowed us to become what we are.

Should people be allowed to pray in school? I think they should. During whatever free time they care to devote to it. Should the school set aside time for it? Most already do, for brief moments in the morning, but that should be the extent of it. There is no place in public education for school sponsored religion, or religious groups. No funds should be available for religious clubs or outings.

[cmbdiesel]

Good source of, seemingly, factual info. I know, that won't interest some people

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html

My question is why a 5.56x45mm instead of a 7.62.39mm ?
The 7.62 weighs effectively the same per cartridge, and has more stopping power. Granted the muzzle velocity is less, but effective range is similar.

[Mistress]

What do you guys think about this? I use to live down the street from the man who got killed. This is really upsetting.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/998573.html

[LUVMBDiesels]

Originally Posted by Mistress

What do you guys think about this? I use to live down the street from the man who got killed. This is really upsetting.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami-dade/story/998573.html

tragic...

[Mistress]

What I can't undertand is that Jay knew his son had Aspergers and why for the life of me he had a weapon in the house that wasn't supervised is beyond me. Don't get me wrong children with Aspergers have a very high IQ's but there is a disconnect when it comes to communication with others.

[Medmech]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Good source of, seemingly, factual info. I know, that won't interest some people

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/556mm_ammo.html

My question is why a 5.56x45mm instead of a 7.62.39mm ?
The 7.62 weighs effectively the same per cartridge, and has more stopping power. Granted the muzzle velocity is less, but effective range is similar.

Because life ends at 200m for the 7.62-39. Plus is well know to be horribally inaccurate.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by Medmech

Because life ends at 200m for the 7.62-39. Plus is well know to be horribally inaccurate.

Don't know the stats, but I can put 10 of 10 into a 7" diameter target at 200yds with my SKS. Of course I don't use chinese ammo either. These guys did a 25yd and 50yd side by side test of 7.62 and .223
http://www.ar-15.us/223_vs_762x39.php (their results may well be skewed by their choice of Wolf ammunition, whose inaccuracy would have more impact on the more accurate weapon)

What is typical distance to target for our troops? (wide range I'm sure)
If typical distance is under 200yds, then the 7.62 brings more to the table. When the distance is greater, how many guys can utilize the greater reach of the .223? Most people I know get real spread out with their groupings, even at 200yds, let alone over (they are not military guys). What training is the military giving our troops? Do they practice long range shooting with the .223

My point is, in house to house combat, I would much rather have the 7.62x39 over the 5.56x45


one note, correct me if I am mistaken, but I have been using .223 and 5.56 interchangeably.

No you are correct .223 is 5.56mm. The way I understand it the military requires the service rifle to be effective for up to 600 yards I belive. That might be why .223. Yes they give our boys in the military incremental targets with open sights to shoot at something like 100,200,300,400,600 yards. Its a great round IMHO. Much more accurate than anything else (SKS or AK).

[Medmech]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Don't know the stats, but I can put 10 of 10 into a 7" diameter target at 200yds with my SKS. Of course I don't use chinese ammo either. These guys did a 25yd and 50yd side by side test of 7.62 and .223
http://www.ar-15.us/223_vs_762x39.php (their results may well be skewed by their choice of Wolf ammunition, whose inaccuracy would have more impact on the more accurate weapon)

What is typical distance to target for our troops? (wide range I'm sure)
If typical distance is under 200yds, then the 7.62 brings more to the table. When the distance is greater, how many guys can utilize the greater reach of the .223? Most people I know get real spread out with their groupings, even at 200yds, let alone over (they are not military guys). What training is the military giving our troops? Do they practice long range shooting with the .223

My point is, in house to house combat, I would much rather have the 7.62x39 over the 5.56x45


one note, correct me if I am mistaken, but I have been using .223 and 5.56 interchangeably.

"Military guys" have no problem grouping at 200-600m, practice varies from 25M to 600m. It seems like a guy like yourself in quest of the truth would figure that out. After 200m-300m the 7.62-39 becomes wildly unstable and drops like a rock. In combat its best to have a weapon that is good to cover almost all battle conditions. That is why 5.56 is the preferred round, there is some movement to the 6mm variants but I don’t think we will see that anytime soon.

I assume you have been in house to house combat to choose which round is better, the answer is really niether.

[HuskyMan]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Maybe your an indigenous person in Alaska, with no possible use for a car, but could use a gun for hunting?

You're a fifth generation farmer in Iowa with no 'job'?

You are a reformed college student who got arrested for underage possession of alcohol?

You were in the armed forces and you just happen to be a violent a55hole?

It's tough to come up with ANY iron clad method of who gets them. Our background check system now works fairly well, but the loopholes need closing.

the shooter in the Virginia Tech slayings passed an NCICS background check and purchased his guns at a local gun store.

background checks only check for PAST behavior, they cannot predict the future actions of an individual. the system is imperfect and cannot determine future actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

the legislators answer to "patching" the "loopholes" is to draft more "legislation" which almost never impacts the criminal use of a firearm. what's the old saying, "When Guns are outlawed only OUTLAWS will have Guns". they write hundreds of pages of new gun laws which tend to impact those who want to obey the law.

had even ONE teacher or student had a loaded gun in their possession that fateful day in Blacksburg, Virginia, how many lives might have been SAVED???

how about placing a loaded .45 in a locked desk drawer of every teacher on campus?

take the teachers to a local shooting range and post the results of their target practice on a bulletin board in the main lobby. the Teacher with the highest score receives a free lunch or dinner. that way, the nut jobs KNOW that they have a very SLIM chance of launching a successful killing spree.

instead the teachers and students are told to "dial 911" and "wait until help arrives". meanwhile, the wacko keeps killing until he runs out of bullets. smart.

[Skippy]

5.56 and .223 aren't quite the same thing. You can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but it's unsafe to use 5.56 in a .223 chambered weapon. American Rifleman did a writeup of the differences some time in late '07. I may still have that issue laying around.

The 5.56 came about after S.L.A. Marshall studied engagements that happened during the Korean War. He determined that most engagements happened at under 300 yards and that most kills occured at less than 100. The long range and power of the .30-06 in use at the time were clearly not needed most of the time, so Marshall began advocating for development of a smaller lighter cartridge that could be carried in creater quantities. He succeeded in persuading the right people, and eventually we got the M16 in 5.56.

The 7.62x39 came about from some similar observations made by various people on the eastern front in WWII. We weren't about to adopt the other side's cartridge in the middle of the Cold War however. It's interesting to note that in the 70's, some time after the U.S. adoption of the 5.56, the Soviets (against Mr. Kalashnakov's objections) went to a 5.45 mm round for their new and improved version of the AK.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by Medmech

"Military guys" have no problem grouping at 200-600m, practice varies from 25M to 600m. It seems like a guy like yourself in quest of the truth would figure that out. After 200m-300m the 7.62-39 becomes wildly unstable and drops like a rock. In combat its best to have a weapon that is good to cover almost all battle conditions. That is why 5.56 is the preferred round, there is some movement to the 6mm variants but I don’t think we will see that anytime soon.

Yes, quest for truth. Do you have any, or do you only have opinion? I see no stats or links to any. Surely someone has done a study involving distances to enemy during engagement.
Directly from a US Army site -
During White Phase, the Soldiers spend their largest bulk of training on basic rifle marksmanship. More time is spent on teaching the Soldiers to shoot than any other single element of basic combat training. In all, the Soldiers will spend 10 full days learning to qualify on their M-16-series rifles. They will learn to fire during the day and at night, and to fire while wearing their M-40-series chemical protective masks.
“BRM is like a phase in BCT. This encompasses 60 percent to 70 percent of Phase II,” said Renfree.
The training is incremental and begins with teaching the trainees basics such as how to hold, load and unload the rifle. It graduates to a 25-meter “zero” range, where the trainees are required to shoot five out of six shots into a 6-centimeter circle before progressing to the next range.
The trainees are slowly introduced to the pop-up targets.
For final qualification, 40 torso-shaped targets pop up at timed intervals ranging in distance from 50 meters to 300 meters away. Trainees fire from a foxhole in a support position, and out of the foxhole lying unsupported.
Those who shoot 36 of the 40 targets qualify as expert. Typically only about 4 percent to 6 percent of the trainees earn this badge, said Renfree. Those qualifying as experts will receive their badges from the battery commander at the range, said Renfree.
“If they qualify expert, they deserve that recognition,” he said.
Trainees who shoot 30 to 35 earn a sharpshooter badge. They need to hit at least 23 to qualify as marksman.
If the trainees do not qualify, they are recycled into another class. This would put off a trainee’s graduation by about two weeks.

Extrapolating from this, I would say that most of these guys can't effectively shoot something more than 200 yards away.

Oh, and forgive me for asking questions. Kinda thought this might be a good place to learn something. Guess for some it's just a place to vent their pent up aggression.