Another sad day... this time for me. - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

BrierS · #16 10-30-2005, 08:23 PM

Holy cow . . . you are certainly in a precarious position on this one.

Please don't get me wrong, but communicating anything directly from the Bible to a sixteen year old is not going to work. You have already so much as stated you know that. Approaching these situations from a societal manner makes more sense though it does not sound as if your wife would buy into that. Too bad.

Unless you are able to get through to her, you are fighting what may be an un-winable battle. I guess at this point you need to do everything for yourself in order to maintain your own sanity and proper perspectives.

If you view things from your youth's eyes, you'll see why many of the things your wife is leaning toward makes for more of an enabler than a mentor. Unconditional love has to co-exist with following the strict rules of acceptable society not as a substitute.

engatwork · #17 10-30-2005, 09:01 PM

Quote:

makes for more of an enabler than a mentor.

The social workers/probation officer have pretty much let the judge know that she is an enabler. I am considering taking her to court to remove her visitation rights while he is in rehab. She needs to be kept away from him as far as I can tell.

It is going to be VERY interesting to see what happens when he get out of the state mandated rehab a year from now. Hopefully, he will come out a responsible adult that can stand on his own two feet. Otherwise, the first item that comes up missing in this house the law will be called and he will be hauled out of here.

neanderthal · #18 10-31-2005, 01:58 AM

this is why i believe beatings should be administered from an early age for serious transgressions.

Plantman · #19 10-31-2005, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neanderthal

this is why i believe beatings should be administered from an early age for serious transgressions.

While I don't always think beatings are needed, I am in favor of spankings when they "mean" something.

I look at most of my friends and the ones that are the most well behaved mannerly, respectful people are always the ones whose mama would "pull out the switch" at the first sign of trouble.

Hence, there was hardly any trouble.

boneheaddoctor · #20 10-31-2005, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neanderthal

this is why i believe beatings should be administered from an early age for serious transgressions.

Depends on what "beatings" mean to you.....I am all for corporal punishment....it works.

But that is open hand, belt or paddle........not closed fist street brawl type beating.

BrierS · #21 10-31-2005, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

Depends on what "beatings" mean to you.....I am all for corporal punishment....it works.

But that is open hand, belt or paddle........not closed fist street brawl type beating.

Now, explain how you would address a situation with the child if you, as the parent, did something wrong and they wanted to administer the belt to you? Your significant other is away on vacation and your child finds you bumping with the maid . . . is it the strong will administer the belt not the weak?

boneheaddoctor · #22 10-31-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

Now, explain how you would address a situation with the child if you, as the parent, did something wrong and they wanted to administer the belt to you? Your significant other is away on vacation and your child finds you bumping with the maid . . . is it the strong will administer the belt not the weak?

The parents are king in the house....not the kids. The kids always must listen to the parents...thats whats wrong in many homes...kid are kids..not equals to the parents.

When the Kids have moved out bought their own house then its time for them to be the kings in their homes.

BrierS · #23 10-31-2005, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

The parents are king in the house....not the kids. The kids always must listen to the parents...thats whats wrong in many homes...kid are kids..not equals to the parents.

When the Kids have moved out bought their own house then its time for them to be the kings in their homes.

Okay, carry that the next step. The biggest and/or strongest kid in the group is "king". So you would teach they have the right to administer discipline?

How about another method. As adults (some of us) what do we do when a situation gets too tense? Count to ten? Bite our tongues for a couple of minutes? Show some type of constraint until we can reasonably think a situation through? In other words, patience. As a parent of two young men now in their twenties, I used "time-outs" since that is parallel to what we as adults use on ourselves. Haven't you ever suggested to a friend to calm down for a few minutes? With children, if done consistently and with patience, it also works. One problem that can be encountered is the parent doesn't have or won't make the time to take this course of action. Why? Because the open hand, belt or whatever else you suggested is faster. I mean, hell, you can get back to your beer and football game much faster . . .

Parenting is a serious part of life and should not be entered into if you do not have the willingness to do it correctly. I guess the fact that neither of my two sons have ever been the initiator in a physical confrontation must mean I have reared them as wimps! Oh, let me see . . . the eldest is a couple degrees away from a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, plays in the A-League men's tennis, mens basketball, is an avid mountain biker, extremely strong swimmer/diver, possesses excellent driving skills, has held as many as three jobs at a time while deciding what he wanted to do, has since worked for the same company for the past 10 +/- years with many advancements . . . the list could go on and then their would be my youngest.

I guess I don't buy into your discipline concepts since they are the lazy parent way of dealing with things. We do not necessarily need to instill in young minds that the strong (king of something) have a right to beat the meek.

Just my rant . . .
Steve

boneheaddoctor · #24 10-31-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

Okay, carry that the next step. The biggest and/or strongest kid in the group is "king". So you would teach they have the right to administer discipline?

How about another method. As adults (some of us) what do we do when a situation gets too tense? Count to ten? Bite our tongues for a couple of minutes? Show some type of constraint until we can reasonably think a situation through? In other words, patience. As a parent of two young men now in their twenties, I used "time-outs" since that is parallel to what we as adults use on ourselves. Haven't you ever suggested to a friend to calm down for a few minutes? With children, if done consistently and with patience, it also works. One problem that can be encountered is the parent doesn't have or won't make the time to take this course of action. Why? Because the open hand, belt or whatever else you suggested is faster. I mean, hell, you can get back to your beer and football game much faster . . .

Parenting is a serious part of life and should not be entered into if you do not have the willingness to do it correctly. I guess the fact that neither of my two sons have ever been the initiator in a physical confrontation must mean I have reared them as wimps! Oh, let me see . . . the eldest is a couple degrees away from a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, plays in the A-League men's tennis, mens basketball, is an avid mountain biker, extremely strong swimmer/diver, possesses excellent driving skills, has held as many as three jobs at a time while deciding what he wanted to do, has since worked for the same company for the past 10 +/- years with many advancements . . . the list could go on and then their would be my youngest.

I guess I don't buy into your discipline concepts since they are the lazy parent way of dealing with things. We do not necessarily need to instill in young minds that the strong (king of something) have a right to beat the meek.

Just my rant . . .
Steve

Perents or the School administration is who deal out the punishment....not other kids....

Should a parent use discretion when doling out punishment? By all means..it should be porportional to the infraction...ANd yes it should be done ASAP as possible to the infraction but delayed for a bit if the parent senses a bit of rage at the monent..

J. R. B. · #25 10-31-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

The parents are king in the house....not the kids. The kids always must listen to the parents...thats whats wrong in many homes...kid are kids..not equals to the parents.

When the Kids have moved out bought their own house then its time for them to be the kings in their homes.

I agree Bonehead. When the kids pay the bills and own the home then they have a right to have a say in matters. Until they are 18 they can just count themselve lucky that they have a home or even exist. When I used my boot on my cousin's kid I let him know that his life as it was at the time was sub-human. In my eyes he was trash. When the kid hit bottom he hit hard. When he realized that his sobbing had no affect on me he started to do some serious thinking. He knew if he wanted to regain my respect he had to earn it and earn it he did. The little ba$tard can weld better than me.

boneheaddoctor · #26 10-31-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. R. B.

I agree Bonehead. When the kids pay the bills and own the home then they have a right to have a say in matters. Until they are 18 they can just count themselve lucky that they have a home or even exist. When I used my boot on my cousin's kid I let him know that his life as it was at the time was sub-human. In my eyes he was trash. When the kid hit bottom he hit hard. When he realized that his sobbing had no affect on me he started to do some serious thinking. He knew if he wanted to regain my respect he had to earn it and earn it he did. The little ba$tard can weld better than me.

Exactly, how will a kid learn real respect if they have never earned it...Believe me you CAN doscipline you kids and still have their respect and admiration...in fact it will be more-so becasue those kids will not grow up thinking they were entitled to everything automaticly....and most importantly that there are consequences for your actions...and many times they are not pleasant

sfloriII · #27 10-31-2005, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

Okay, carry that the next step. The biggest and/or strongest kid in the group is "king". So you would teach they have the right to administer discipline?

Thing is, it's not a matter of who's stronger. It's a matter of who is the most mature.

I had both "timeouts" and occasional spankings when I was a kid. Heck, as soon as we got too big for the spankings to take effect, we got the flyswatter!

We "kids" are now 44, 40 (me), and 38. None of us had excessive dicipline problems growing up and we are all perfectly normal adults.

Kids simply don't get it sometimes. When I have kids and they get way out of line, they'll get a little spanking too, albeit rarely.

kerry · #28 10-31-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. R. B.

I agree Bonehead. When the kids pay the bills and own the home then they have a right to have a say in matters. Until they are 18 they can just count themselve lucky that they have a home or even exist. When I used my boot on my cousin's kid I let him know that his life as it was at the time was sub-human. In my eyes he was trash. When the kid hit bottom he hit hard. When he realized that his sobbing had no affect on me he started to do some serious thinking. He knew if he wanted to regain my respect he had to earn it and earn it he did. The little ba$tard can weld better than me.

I think children need to be integrated into houshold decisiomaking processes as they grow up. It seems to me that from about the ago of 7 or 8 or so, their ideas, feelings and plans are relevant to household decisions. They can start becoming responsible for their own decisions around 13 or 14 I think. It's a long process of developing responsibility and wisdom. I don't see how the ownership of property has much of a bearing on the rights and responsibilities of decisionmaking.
It's too late at 18 to expect children to all of a sudden gain responsibility, it has to be gradually developed.
Our local 'open' school has a high school curriculum that designates 'passages' and not classes. One of the (optional?) passages for high school students is to move out of their parents house, rent an apt and support themselves without help from their parents. The students meet with other students and teachers to discuss and strategize about the experience. Not a bad thing to to in my opinion. Every graduate of that school I have had the opportunity to interact with has been much more mature and responsible than the average person of their age.

azureblue · #29 10-31-2005, 03:11 PM

My oldest daughter(22) ran me through the wringer in highschool. Shop lifted jeans, but told me "friends" gave them to her, lied on a daily basis even when no lie was neccesary, got into the drug scene, you name it. Last time I layed into her(15,5 licks) with a belt, it came after repeatedly asking her to come clean. I told her I knew the truth and all she had to do was "elocute" and a standard grounding would be her fine. Because she could not figure out how I knew(phone tap) she denied it right through all 5 licks. Imagine how quickly her concocted "self-righteous" look fled when she heard herself "elocuting" about doping(Dimetap) her 4 and 6 y/o sisters so that a couple of punks could come and visit her and her friend while her Dad and I where at work. 7 years later, the friend has 2 illegit kids with the punk that came to see her that night(they are not together, he married another girl) and mine has acquired one of her own with a 30y/o who already had 2 with 2 other "I just want to have fun" girls. She sees now that where she is today started way back then. It also took a very long time for her to understand that her integrity was a most valuable asset, and that reinstating it was a painful process where she would often not be believed even when she was telling the truth. The fact that everybody lies at one time or another can never make it OK. The idea that once it is past, it should be forgotten, is bogus, not to mention impossible. Best deterrent to repeating an infraction is remembering what happened the first time around. Do not harp on it but use it as a reminder when the need arises.

I did what you are considering, gave the ill-gotten goods to charity, but if I had it to do again, I would march her right back to the store and make her turn it in and "elocute" on what she had done. A run with the law would have had even more impact than just my ire and dissapointment and today, she agrees and is contrite for the "Hell" she brought down on all of us back then.

I had to point out to her that I never counseled her through words or actions to do anything that was not good for her or was just plain wrong, and that I do love her unconditionally but can despise what she might do at the same time. One is an emotion of the heart and the other is the logic of the mind. Combined they become toughlove and for some, it is the only thing that gets through. After she failed to graduate and decided to leave, "This house with all of it's rules(standard few) and expectations(school is your "job") is horrible, I'm out of here!!, I helped her pack her bags much to her surprise!! She has been in and out over the last 4 years. Having to fend for herself has taught her a lot. At home, she would stay in the car if I went to Wal-Mart.Guess she figured she could shoplift the pricey things she wanted! Now she is thrilled to find sale items there. She knows my door is open, but being 22 does not change the fact that IT IS MY HOUSE!! Want to do your own thing, get your own pad.

Biggest thing I learned from her, WATCH THOSE FRIENDS!! They are almost exclusivly at the root of most troubles unless your homelife is a shambles.Best by-product of the whole thing, a 13y/o and an 11 y/o who have been quietly watching from outside and taking notes. Both honor roll students who have enough self confidence to have no desire to run with the wrong crowd and know that you get what you earn, including respect. I feel a solid work ethic is the best vaccination against all of the woes you are encountering. I also agree that flat statements about what will happen in the event of an infraction makes the condition of their future, their choice. Really puts it on their back when you can say "You have taken your phone priviledges away" rather than "I'm taking the phone away from you".

Whatever you choose to do, hang in there. If you are overwhelmed, get help of the kind that builds her(job?) without letting her try to lay it at your feet. (Mine tried this) 16 is old enough to know better. Remind her that you love her, if you did'nt, you would not care what she did, and take some comfort in the fact that most of us turn out OK in the end even if we fail to reach our fullest potential. Good Luck.

J. R. B. · #30 10-31-2005, 03:31 PM

Azure--You know they have hit bottom when they realize the wasted years. My cousin's boy realizes this and is trying to regain his lost years. He will never get his lost time back but it has made a better person out of him.