1985 California A/C Hose Layout - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Adriel · #1 06-27-2016, 11:56 PM

Klima apparently never has done a 1985 California emissions W123. The hose comes no where close to following the directions, especially a "service loop". Not their fault, but even more reason for me to have the suction hose, the one that goes under the radiator, custom made.

Klima apparently has a lot of customers using R12, so they calculated the volumes, thus why a service loop to keep the volumes the same. However, was informed that if going to R134a, not as critical. This is apparently why the original hose was a number 10 and modern systems (including the parallel flow condenser) use number 8.

Have the crazy idea of rather than have that hose running under all those belts and having to run without the air filter when servicing the A/C, re-route the hose. It would have a 45 degree metal line out of the compressor, to a number 8 hose along the cross member, use the existing through hole for some type of support, then another 45 degree to go to the side member and up to the condenser. Thinking could put the high side service port by the headlight.

Any feedback/help greatly appreciated!

whunter · #2 06-28-2016, 04:30 AM

The constant enemy or A/C R&D prototype is vibration.

As long as there is sufficient support for the metal coupling line, the rubber hose can "in theory" be any length you desire to buffer engine to body motion.

Adjusting the refrigerant charge can be done through calculation or simple manual charge tweak until evaporator output temperature reaches the correct value.

FYI...

All vehicle manufacturers:
A/C hose routing is typically the LAST engineering point settled before vehicle production.
And I can assure you that climate control engineers are forever ABUSED by all other departments - divisions in automobile manufacturing.

Here is a boringly typical scenario...................
You spend months or years getting heat-A/C to work, only to have power train order you to redesign - reroute the line set two weeks before production.
The same day safety orders you to shorten and narrow the heater - evaporator box for additional accelerator pedal, and windshield wiper motor - linkage clearance.

How climate control engineers remain SANE, or make the climate control system work as well as it does it astonishing to me.

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Adriel · #3 06-28-2016, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

The constant enemy or A/C R&D prototype is vibration.

As long as there is sufficient support for the metal coupling line, the rubber hose can "in theory" be any length you desire to buffer engine to body motion.

Adjusting the refrigerant charge can be done through calculation or simple manual charge tweak until evaporator output temperature reaches the correct value.

...

Thank you so very much for the reply!

So are you saying only use metal if can be supported and otherwise rubber?

Planned already to tweet the charge, so good to know right on track.

ROLLGUY · #4 06-29-2016, 01:11 AM

As far as I know, the only difference is the low side (suction) hose going into the cabin. On the CA model, it is shorter, and the pipe going across the front of the engine is straight, and not curved like the Federal. The rest of the plumbing is identical to the Federal. The compressor manifold assembly is the same for all of the 616/617 engines with the R4. Klima uses adaptor fittings to use the factory hose assemblies, so all the factory hoses remain. I personally don't think it is a good idea to use 25+ year old hoses, especially when using r134a. That is why I designed my kit to use new hoses routed differently. In the end, the Klima kit is more costly, all things considered. I am not saying it is a bad design (other than using old hoses), I just have not had any experience with one.

DeliveryValve · #5 06-29-2016, 04:00 AM

^^^ The high pressure metal line near the alternator is also different to accommodate the relocated air cleaner and to clear the trap oxidizer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

Klima apparently never has done a 1985 California emissions W123. The hose comes no where close to following the directions, especially a "service loop". Not their fault, but even more reason for me to have the suction hose, the one that goes under the radiator, custom made.
...

You might have to take some pictures of what you are talking about.

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Adriel · #6 06-29-2016, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

As far as I know, the only difference is the low side (suction) hose going into the cabin. On the CA model, it is shorter, and the pipe going across the front of the engine is straight, and not curved like the Federal. The rest of the plumbing is identical to the Federal. The compressor manifold assembly is the same for all of the 616/617 engines with the R4. Klima uses adaptor fittings to use the factory hose assemblies, so all the factory hoses remain. I personally don't think it is a good idea to use 25+ year old hoses, especially when using r134a. That is why I designed my kit to use new hoses routed differently. In the end, the Klima kit is more costly, all things considered. I am not saying it is a bad design (other than using old hoses), I just have not had any experience with one.

Rich, thank you so very much for a reply!

I looked through your A/C thread, and the Federal does look different. I can't fathom wagen being different, right? So, I attached what I have in the way of high side (suction) hose. Know high side because of the part and says suction on both compressors.

Also from the pictures, looks like the Federal has both the high side and the low side service ports on the front of the engine?

My low side is up on the front on the strait hard line, but the high side as you can see is under the turbocharger. When Moe has serviced the Mercedes, becomes a trick getting the hose not to be in danger and also we have to run without the air cleaner, which in California may work, but not here in the desert.

Actually, Klima as I said replaces the high side (suction) hose. Since never seen a California model, they send the hose uncrimped. Annoys me that their website doesn't inform on of this.

Why not use the original hoses if they don't leak? Because they don't have barrier fittings due to being R12 hoses? As it is, can't afford further expense, not even my suppliments that keep me out of the hospital. Supposedly Klima refund the $35 once I send back the hose that doesn't fit.

How more expensive? Your brackets are $500, right? I paid less than $300 and got the hose. Paid $180 for the compressor, but bet you have the ones you sell have the wiring already modified.

What I do like about how you did your hoses is there is no "manifold" for the parallel flow condenser. I don't like having all these connections, even stock has more than my liking. I am sorely tempted to have you make up a set of hoses, but considering what happened last time, leery. If was in the area, that wouldn't be the case.

Ember (myS.D.) is concerned about me getting up at this odd hour and just for fun attached the picture; first time taking the ball to bed. Cute how her toys are comfort like a child's blanket or thumb.

Adriel · #7 06-29-2016, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

^^^ The high pressure metal line near the alternator is also different to accommodate the relocated air cleaner and to clear the trap oxidizer.

You might have to take some pictures of what you are talking about.

.

How is the high side different? Can anyone provide pictures?

Can't because Klima said not to install the hose if want to return. It is only a couple feet long, where stock is what, five feet at least?

Back to bed...

ROLLGUY · #8 06-29-2016, 11:16 AM

The point I was making about the hoses being the same for Fed and CA, only applies to the compressor end (manifold),as that is what is changed when using the Klima supplied hoses/adapters. If the other end is different (the hoses do in fact look different in your photos than a Fed setup), then it should not matter. Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't see why Klima would have or need a different hose kit for the CA model.

Adriel · #9 06-29-2016, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

The point I was making about the hoses being the same for Fed and CA, only applies to the compressor end (manifold),as that is what is changed when using the Klima supplied hoses/adapters. If the other end is different (the hoses do in fact look different in your photos than a Fed setup), then it should not matter. Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't see why Klima would have or need a different hose kit for the CA model.

Rich, okay, so then the hose going from the hard line to the compressor is the same, interesting.

The issue with Klima is they had a customer complaint, so now have to crimp the hoses yourself.

Wish had posted these pictures earlier, as was told by the Peach that all the hoses are different. C'est la vie.

DeliveryValve · #10 06-29-2016, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

....
Wish had posted these pictures earlier, as was told by the Peach that all the hoses are different. C'est la vie.

Who on the Peach told you ALL the hoses were different?

Adriel · #11 06-29-2016, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

Who on the Peach told you ALL the hoses were different?

Here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

The difference is the a/c hose setup has to account for the trap oxidizer, high mounted turbo and relocated air cleaner.

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Interesting it looks like the same person.

So yes, misquoted, but can see how it can be taken that there is more than one different hose.

DeliveryValve · #12 06-29-2016, 01:48 PM

Yes, there is more than one hose that is different, but it's all in the turbo side of the engine. But you just read into it too much.

What I gather is the Klima setup has you deleting the high side hard line and hoses from the compressor to the condenser. The hose you have that has an end uncrimped is then custom fitted from the compressor directly to the condenser.

BTW - You really ought to keep this all in one thread instead of making all these single threads which is really about the same issue.

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Adriel · #13 06-29-2016, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

Yes, there is more than one hose that is different, but it's all in the turbo side of the engine. But you just read into it too much. .

Easy to do for me... Really need things black and white.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

What I gather is the Klima setup has you deleting the high side hard line and hoses from the compressor to the condenser. The hose you have that has an end uncrimped is then custom fitted from the compressor directly to the condenser. .

If they are, then certainly the hose is way too short, especially to follow the advice and directions to do a "service loop".

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

BTW - You really ought to keep this all in one thread instead of making all these single threads which is really about the same issue.

Why?

I do separate threads as the titles don't reflect, some hijacked, and questions get lost and/or unanswered. This way, keep at the top and clearly know what the topic and question(s) are.

Take for example the power steering bracket. It has been at least three days and still no answer.

However, let us get back on topic.

Should I keep the adapter/"manifold" at the condenser, or go number 8 hoses?

If so, how?

Keep the prior layout?

Again, thank y'all for the tremendous help!

DeliveryValve · #14 06-29-2016, 02:06 PM

What is a "Service Loop"?

DeliveryValve · #15 06-29-2016, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adriel

R....

Actually, Klima as I said replaces the high side (suction) hose. Since never seen a California model, they send the hose uncrimped. Annoys me that their website doesn't inform on of this......

It appears the website does inform the potential customer, you must of missed this.

Klima Design Works | W123 Sanden SD A/C Compressor Mounting Kit

Quote:

Kit includes new high-pressure hose running from compressor head to condenser input. Original high-pressure lines (2 pieces) will be removed and replaced.

......

1985 Model Year California model kits (vehicles with trap oxidizer) available with uncrimped fittings only. Installer must crimp fittings to hose at time of installation.

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Hose assembly with upgraded R-134a high-pressure side charge port; low-pressure side R-134a port adapter included.

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