Hello, all

I'm nearing the end of a long-term project - a major refresh on a 1983 240D. At the moment, I'm replacing the clutch.

Now, I've previously done a one-for-one transmission replacement on a 1994 5-speed Subaru (didn't touch the clutch) and an engine replacement on a 1991 VW Vanagon. On the Vanagon, I swapped the (good) used clutch from my old engine over to the new one (the "new" engine was sourced from an automatic).

I mention all this just so you know that I'm not completely alien to the job. But, this is my first 240D clutch replacment, and the first time I'm actually replacing a worn-out clutch with a new one.

I noticed a difference between the old pressure plate and the new one. I bought a LUK clutch kit and I believe the pressure plate is marked as a Sachs part. Anyway, the new one has, for lack of a better term, a ring in the center. New and old next to each other:


The "ring" looks like it's part of the pressure plate assembly, but I've never seen anything like it (I haven't seen a lot of clutches with my own eyes). I just wanted to make sure it's SUPPOSED to be there, and that it's not just a piece put there for shipping that I need to remove. It certainly looks like it's supposed to be there. So, that's question #1.

The new clutch disc next to the old one:





Next question - I had the transmission out to clean it up a little bit:


While looking it over, I noticed I have a bit of side to side play at the input shaft. Is this something I need to be concerned about? If so, what's the next step - replacing the input shaft bearing?

I can't find anything in the factory CD ROM manual about the transmission, no matter how hard I look (if anyone knows if/where it is in there, please let me know). But, from what parts diagrams I can find, it looks like I might be able to remove the front seal cover and replace the input shaft bearing without doing anything else.

Does that sound about right? Or, am I way off on that?


I also have a 4-speed out of a '79 parts car I had a couple of years back. I haven't removed it from the '79 engine yet, but I presume it's in better shape than the '83 transmission. Would it be worth just installing the '79 transmission?

Thanks

The input shafts are always surprisingly loose. Nothing wrong there, but at this age it might be a good idea to change the seals, though as I remember, the front one looks tough.

I imagine the ring on the PP is a durability plus, just check your dimensions carefully to make sure they are the same.

On the flywheel be careful not to take any more than necessary on the surface as it will make your engagement point lower and closer to the floor.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Play on the input shaft is normal for the old transmissions. I have freaked out about that too, sourced a completely different gearbox with exactly the same play.

I like that clutch pressure plate ring seating surface for the release bearing. Have not seen a pressure plate with that either. I could see the fingers lasting a lot longer, but i hope its not a source of noise in the distant future

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Thanks for the input.

t walgamuth - I doubt I'll go to the trouble of replacing seals I didn't see any evidence of leaking. The transmission was dirty, but that's all. I wouldn't be opposed to pulling the transmission again if it did turn out to be leaky, but I don't think that's the case.

I agree that it would probably be a good idea, but I don't want to mess with something that doesn't clearly need to be touched. As for the flywheel, I'm going to clean it first and go from there.

The old clutch was worn, but it didn't look quite down to the rivets. It looked noticeably better to my eyes than did the flywheel in my aforementioned Vanagon (also a hydraulic clutch, if that makes any difference). I may be OK on this one with a good cleaning.

Mostly, I have no idea where I could take the flywheel locally for a resurfacing, and nobody I can ask. I don't know any machine shops or anyone else locally that does their own repairs. If it looks like I can sidestep that safely, I probably will. I'm not opposed to doing so if it really looks necessary, though.

I know I should, but I know not everyone does or really has to. Long and the short - playing flywheel resurfacing by ear for the moment.


JB3 - Glad I'm not the only one who hasn't seen something like that before. Like I said, I've seen only a handful of clutches with my own eyes. I've seen lots of pictures, I don't recall a ring like that at all, before. But, I am seeing that ring in SOME pictures of brand new clutch assemblies. Also good to know about the input shaft.

As for the ring being a source of noise, I highly doubt that. The clutch kit is LUK, but included a Sachs pressure plate. I've seen pictures of the Sachs pressure plates (which, from what I can tell from reading, are good quality parts), and some of the pictures have the ring, others don't. It looks to me like an updated design. If so, it was probably updated for a good reason.



Basically, I'm at a stage in this job where I have a lot of options, plenty of time, access to parts, etc, and can make decisions about how to proceed without having a lot of pressure on me. It's a good place to be.

The 79 tranny, as you probably know, is the "iron" version and possibly a little more robust. To change over you will also need to swap the clutch slave, shift rods and throw out bearing, no big deal, it'll work fine.

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"

Shift linkage, too. Not that that's a problem - I have that from my old parts car. Plus, no matter which transmission goes in, it's getting a new clutch master and new clutch slave cylinder. No idea on the age of the current parts, and they likely date to 1983 and 1979, respectively.

As it is, I'm leaning towards keeping the '79 stuff as a spare/backup.

The flywheel was deeply worn on my 74 BMW when I did its clutch....mb flywheels seem to be a lot harder.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

On your line - take the bits to your Parker store (or Swagelok if you have one) and they'll dig out the bits to make a new one. Most towns of any size will have one or the other or both. Mine has SS braided Teflon for the flex bit and we adapted metric to English - much more difficult than what you need to do. Mine works perfectly.

Dan

Figured it was a good time to update this thread with a new issue. I've been working on the car steadily and have installed pretty much all new parts in the brake and clutch systems. The car has been sitting for around 7-8 years, and I wanted the hydraulics to be safe. Here's the list of what I replaced:

-all brake lines (rubber and metal lines)
-all four brake calipers (all four of the old ones were at least partially seized)
-brake master cylinder (had a leak from the reservoir grommets - wanted to be on the safe side and replace that, too)
-clutch slave cylinder (old one came out looking like trash - the fluid hose almost didnt come off without damage, and the bleed screw was hopelessly seized)
-clutch master cylinder (figured I'd go for broke and replace that, too. When I got it out, it looked like the seal around the push rod was in none-too-good shape)
-fluid hose running from the brake master cylinder reservoir to the clutch master cylinder

So, pretty much everything is new, and now that it's installed, I need to fill and bleed the system. I figured I'd start with the clutch hydraulics and go from there.

Last night, I opened up the clutch slave cylinder bleed screw and connected a pump oil can filled with brake fluid to the bleeder via a hose. I started pumping fluid, but it was leaking out of the threads on the bleed screw. I pumped for a while, and saw no sign of fluid going anywhere near the brake master cylinder reservoir. After that, I disconnected the hose from the oil pump can and connected it to my brake power bleeder instead. Still, I was not able to push fluid into the system.

I did some searching, and based on the experiences of others on this board, I went out to the hardware store today and got some teflon tape. I removed and wrapped the clutch slave cylinder bleed screw with teflon tape. I was careful not to block the bleed hole on the screw. This seemed to seal off the leak I had.

Once again, tonight, I tried to push fluid up through the slave cylinder bleed screw with my power bleeder, but still am not having any luck. It's not leaking anymore, but I just can't push fluid through.


Any thoughts?

Are you sure the slave bleeder isn't plugged? The clutch slave is the lowest part of the hydraulic system meaning thats where the crud collects.

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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"

I haven't really worked on a manual for a very long time but when we did a clutch replacement we always rebuilt the master and slave cylinders. The rebuild kits were inexpensive and we never had problems afterwards. A very tiny hole leads to the bleed nipple inside the slave at least for the cars i was working on perhaps that is plugged?

On another topic has anyone used a roller bearing instead of the pilot bushing that seems to be the trend these days although I haven't searched for a suitable one yet

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92 e300d2.5t
01 e320
05 cdi
85 chev c10

Once again, the slave cylinder is brand new, straight out of the box. I actually am sure the bleeder is clear. I pulled it out completely and cleaned the new brake fluid off it before I wrapped the screw in teflon tape. I made 100% sure the bleed hole stayed clear, and verified that by squirting some brake parts cleaner through it.

Tonight, I'm going to try upping the pressure on my vacuum bleeder. If that doesn't work, I'm going to yank the new clutch master cylinder and check pushrod length. Folks elsewhere think it's possible that I installed the wrong pushrod (I used the one already attached to the clutch master, and ignored the second one that came with it. I may need to switch them).

Had similar bleeding problems a few months ago while renovating my 240D. I had no problems doing brakes and CV axles, but hit a stone wall bleeding my clutch after replacing the master cylinder.

Been working on my own cars since H.S. in the 50's. Started foreign cars in the 60's. Never had a problem bleeding brakes or clutch systems, but the last clutch work was in the late 80's on my 71 Bavaria, which I sold in the 90's. All automatics since then.

I tried every method without success, finally chalked it up to old age & paid an indy I use to bleed it for me. I gave the shop an OK to put on a new slave cylinder too and it was ready that afternoon.

When I picked it up, I asked him about it. He didn't work on it himself, but said the kid had a lot of trouble, but eventually got it w/o his help. Told me they sometimes use pressure from the reservoir end plus vacuum from the slave bleeder fitting. Don

Before I disconnect anything, I may also try the following:

1) Fill the reservoir and bleed the brake system first (remember, all new parts, so the lines are dry. There is some brake fluid in the reservoir from when I bench bled it, but that's it at this point.

2) Try, with my pressure bleeder, to bleed the clutch hydraulics from above.


If I can't push any fluid through from above, then I know I have a blockage somewhere, and am (possibly) looking at a pushrod length issue.

I may also simply disconnect the line from the bottom of the clutch master cylinder and see if fluid made it that far yet. Once again, that would likely tell me (or suggest) if there's a blockage at the clutch master cylinder.

Update. I just ran in from the garage and will be heading back out after I post this.

I tried a couple of things so far tonight.


1) I disconnected the lower fluid pipe from the new clutch master cylinder and shot a squirt through my bleeder again. In a second I ended up with a very small puddle of brake fluid on the car floor. This told me that the fluid does and will flow through the clutch slave cylinder and that the line from the slave cylinder to the master cylinder isn't clogged.

2)Then, I reconnected the fluid pipe to the clutch master cylinder and I tried bleeding again with my power bleeder through the slave cylinder bleed screw. No go. Fluid did not reach the brake master cylinder reservoir.


3) At this point, I opted to inspect the clutch push rod. So, I removed it. Thankfully, this went much more easily than when I removed the old one and installed this one last week. Once out, I pulled out the push rod and did a little comparison.



The one on the left is the one that was installed on the new clutch master cylinder from the factory. The black one is an alternate length pushrod that the instructions say is for a W126 car. The one on the far right is the pushrod from the old (presumably, original to the car) clutch master cylinder. Not sure if this is an apples-to-apples comparison.

The instructions:


I bought the clutch master cylinder from Peachparts. It's FTE part number 001-295-44-06-M33. To be on the safe side, I also ordered the separate FTE push rod, part number 000-295-08-33-M33. The separate push rod (not pictured above) appears to be the same exact length as the one on the left in the above photo.

As you can see, the push rod specified in the instructions for the W123 is MUCH shorter than the push rod from the original clutch master cylinder. Even the black one (supplied with the clutch master cylinder) is shorter. As I said above, I'm not sure this is even an apples-to-apples comparison.

I'm tempted to try a couple of different things at this point.

1) I noticed that I had to push the pushrod in a little bit to get the clutch master cylinder push rod to bolt up to the pedal assembly. I'm wondering if I should try unbolting the push rod from the pedal assembly and attempting to bleed it before bolting down the pushrod itself.

2) Given the first photo, I'm also tempted to try the longer push rod (black one) and see if that makes any difference.


Any additional input or theories would be most welcome. Thanks.