Are Hybrids Dead? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

hdexpert · #31 12-23-2008, 09:17 PM

Back in 92 I bought a new left over 91 CRX HF, the high fuel economy model. Great gas mileage (average was 42) with highway only trips seeing well over 50MPG. It was solid, well built, simple and had decent acceleration. If Honda were to build this type of car again, I would buy it!!!
As far as hybrids are concerned, they are nothing more than a stepping stone to something better. You won't see one 20 years from now. Just wait till hybrid owners have to start shelling out their own $$$ to replace the big battery pack. Also, do you know how bad it is for the enviroment to produce hybrids? Google it, you might be surprised. Just my 2 cents worth.

MBNRA · #32 12-23-2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio300TDTdriver

I think what you said is right on the mark.

My wife wanted a hybrid so we got one. You know, happy wife happy life.
Most of her friends drive minivans that get 15-16 mpg, while she gets 47 mpg. We may never break even on the extra cost in dollars, but there are other costs that matter as much to us.

We can start drilling everywhere Sarah Palin (remember her) wants us too. The reality is we run out of oil some day. It may not be in my life time, but certainly could happen in my kids lifetime. Then we need some alternatives. Hybrids may not be the answer, but we need to start somewhere.

You don't see Honda and Toyota needing a bailout to stay in business. They must be doing something right.

Ummmm.....yeah. Gm has 96,300 employees but more than 1 million freeloaders on the GM healthcare plan! I saw 2 UAW workers on Huckabee last sunday. If these guys are the future of the UAW, one 350 lbs or more and the other one who kept footnoting his entire point with "uh,you know you know" and I wanted to call in and say, "no I don't know"! Toyota does not have this problem! I was blown away when the UAW wasn't even greatful when they got a bailout with our taxpayer dollars to keep their jobs and started *****in' when they were told they would have to take Company stock instead of more benefits! Disgusting! I'm ready to boycott the U.S automakers and bankrupt those idiot liberal extortionist unions so we can compete like everyone else.

Geez, I'm so sick of GIMME GIMME GIMME!

BodhiBenz1987 · #33 12-23-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowbenz

I love diesels, but seriously the antihybrid attitudes defy logic. Hybrids easily exceed 45mpg at highway speeds (>70mph). No other car is going to do that except a jetta diesel. Yes, earlier cars like crx's and geo metros could do this but they were tin can cars. Small cars just don't get the mileage they should because the safety requirements make them too damn heavy. A necessary tradeoff because your life is certainly worth more than a few more MPG in my opinion. The safety features and interior dimensions of the prius and civic dwarf those other models. The prius is just as big on the inside as a camry and in fact has more leg room in the back than a camry. Ford's new midsized hybrid (fusion) is going to get over 40mpg on the highway.

The Ford Fusion gets 36 on the highway and 41 in the city. I think you've got it backwards ... the hybrid is basically useless on the highway, because it only runs off the engine after a certain point, so it's just a 4-cyl gas engine + an extra deadweight battery. In the CITY hybrids are lengths ahead of internal-combustion-only cars, because the braking constantly recharges the battery. I don't understand why people have to be excessively pro-hybrid or excessively anti-hybrid. If you drive mostly highway, they're nothing special and are way behind a Jetta TDI. If you drive mostly city, they make a lot of sense over a regular gas or diesel car. Different cars for different applications ... there isn't one "better" technology.

I don't think hybrids are dead. Gas prices will go back up. I think they'll suffer because they are more expensive, and people are going to be really, really cheap for a while. Hopefully the niche will remain and it won't slow technological advances with hybrids in the future. A lot of manufacturers have been working on diesel-electric hybrids and I would love to see those hit the road.

I think the biggest challenge in automotive advancement with any techology (diesel, hybrid, plain ol' gas) is that people are stupid. They don't use logic. They follow fads. They want to impress the neighbors and pat themselves on the back. Very few people have any idea how a hybrid works, where it works best, etc.

#34 12-23-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

The diesel locomotives you are speaking of are not hybrids either.

Actually they are, its called a series hybrid.

Common hybrids like what Toyota, Honda and GM sell are parallel hybrids.

Bio300TDTdriver · #35 12-23-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

The Ford Fusion gets 36 on the highway and 41 in the city. I think you've got it backwards ... the hybrid is basically useless on the highway, because it only runs off the engine after a certain point, so it's just a 4-cyl gas engine + an extra deadweight battery. In the CITY hybrids are lengths ahead of internal-combustion-only cars, because the braking constantly recharges the battery. I don't understand why people have to be excessively pro-hybrid or excessively anti-hybrid. If you drive mostly highway, they're nothing special and are way behind a Jetta TDI. If you drive mostly city, they make a lot of sense over a regular gas or diesel car. Different cars for different applications ... there isn't one "better" technology.

I don't think hybrids are dead. Gas prices will go back up. I think they'll suffer because they are more expensive, and people are going to be really, really cheap for a while. Hopefully the niche will remain and it won't slow technological advances with hybrids in the future. A lot of manufacturers have been working on diesel-electric hybrids and I would love to see those hit the road.

I think the biggest challenge in automotive advancement with any techology (diesel, hybrid, plain ol' gas) is that people are stupid. They don't use logic. They follow fads. They want to impress the neighbors and pat themselves on the back. Very few people have any idea how a hybrid works, where it works best, etc.

I would argue that hybrids are way ahead of the TDIs. The TDIs are usually in the shop because of the plugged up intakes, due to the EGR. I can't stop by me Indie's garage without him showing me one.

You are correct that the huge advantage is in city driving, but we can still get 45 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. My wife can get 50 mpg if she keeps it at 60, but I can't drive that slowly.

I don't think of myself as pro hybrid or diesel. Like you said they both have their advantages. I try to defend the good points of the hybrids. When people start talking about tin cans, and replacing batteries, it irks me. They don't know what they are talking about and probably haven't set foot in a new hybrid.

The funny thing is, we were an hour away from purchasing a low mileage '04 Jetta. Someone beat us there with the cash. In hindsight, I probably have a much happier existence with the purchase we made.

yellowbenz · #36 12-23-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

The Ford Fusion gets 36 on the highway and 41 in the city. I think you've got it backwards ... the hybrid is basically useless on the highway, because it only runs off the engine after a certain point, so it's just a 4-cyl gas engine + an extra deadweight battery. In the CITY hybrids are lengths ahead of internal-combustion-only cars, because the braking constantly recharges the battery. I don't understand why people have to be excessively pro-hybrid or excessively anti-hybrid. If you drive mostly highway, they're nothing special and are way behind a Jetta TDI. If you drive mostly city, they make a lot of sense over a regular gas or diesel car. Different cars for different applications ... there isn't one "better" technology.

I don't think hybrids are dead. Gas prices will go back up. I think they'll suffer because they are more expensive, and people are going to be really, really cheap for a while. Hopefully the niche will remain and it won't slow technological advances with hybrids in the future. A lot of manufacturers have been working on diesel-electric hybrids and I would love to see those hit the road.

I think the biggest challenge in automotive advancement with any techology (diesel, hybrid, plain ol' gas) is that people are stupid. They don't use logic. They follow fads. They want to impress the neighbors and pat themselves on the back. Very few people have any idea how a hybrid works, where it works best, etc.

Well, I won't quibble about the fusion info. EPA hasn't rated it yet. Only review I can recall for sure was a combined 43mpg city/ highway. However, take your own advice and learn about how the prius works. There is no way that car would get over 40 mpg if the battery/electric motor were not involved in propelling the car at highway speeds. Honestly, it's cool technology that any gear head can get excited about. Furthermore, if you want unbiased info go to the epa site. Jetta diesel 2009 30/41 city/ highway. 2009 Toyota Prius 48/45 city highway.

BodhiBenz1987 · #37 12-23-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio300TDTdriver

I don't think of myself as pro hybrid or diesel. Like you said they both have their advantages. I try to defend the good points of the hybrids. When people start talking about tin cans, and replacing batteries, it irks me. They don't know what they are talking about and probably haven't set foot in a new hybrid.

That stuff irks me too ... but it goes back to what I said before ... people are stupid. They decide they either like hybrids or don't and just repeat random things they heard that support whichever position they like. I can see positives and negatives of hybrids, as well as TDIs (BTW, when I said TDIs were miles ahead of hybrids on the highway, I meant that strictly in the mpg sense ... I haven't owned either so I can't comment on durability, convenience, cost to maintain, etc.).

I hate it when people write off hybrids because they don't like the image or they have some idea about "dangerous" batteries or "tin can" quality. I also hate it when they try to tell me a hybrid SUV that gets 20 mpg is more "green" than a gasoline sedan that gets 41 mpg. Would it be impossible to combine open-mindedness with logic?

BodhiBenz1987 · #38 12-23-2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowbenz

Well, I won't quibble about the fusion info. EPA hasn't rated it yet. Only review I can recall for sure was a combined 43mpg city/ highway. However, take your own advice and learn about how the prius works. There is no way that car would get over 40 mpg if the battery/electric motor were not involved in propelling the car at highway speeds. Honestly, it's cool technology that any gear head can get excited about. Furthermore, if you want unbiased info go to the epa site. Jetta diesel 2009 30/41 city/ highway. 2009 Toyota Prius 48/45 city highway.

EPA rated the Fusion today ... final figures 36/41.

I did go to the EPA site. I would imagine people will do better than 41 city ... as they do better than the EPA rating on the Jettas and Prius. EPA has gotten really stingy, which is good ... that's better than blown-up ratings.

MTUpower · #39 12-23-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio300TDTdriver

I think what you said is right on the mark.

My wife wanted a hybrid so we got one. You know, happy wife happy life.
Most of her friends drive minivans that get 15-16 mpg, while she gets 47 mpg. We may never break even on the extra cost in dollars, but there are other costs that matter as much to us.

We can start drilling everywhere Sarah Palin (remember her) wants us too. The reality is we run out of oil some day. It may not be in my life time, but certainly could happen in my kids lifetime. Then we need some alternatives. Hybrids may not be the answer, but we need to start somewhere.

You don't see Honda and Toyota needing a bailout to stay in business. They must be doing something right.

So the break even is in your mind... not based in real world facts or I guess you would have posted them- just your mind. Can I also then refute with my mind only?

How about this--- your hybrids designing, manufacturing, advertising, transporting, selling, recycling (at least one, perhaps three) and maintaining costs will be far greater in damage to the planet than keeping a MB diesel ever will be. And that's with diesel fuel- not counting bio diesel or SVO or burning other recycled petroleum.

yellowbenz · #40 12-23-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

So the break even is in your mind... not based in real world facts or I guess you would have posted them- just your mind. Can I also then refute with my mind only?

How about this--- your hybrids designing, manufacturing, advertising, transporting, selling, recycling (at least one, perhaps three) and maintaining costs will be far greater in damage to the planet than keeping a MB diesel ever will be. And that's with diesel fuel- not counting bio diesel or SVO or burning other recycled petroleum.

Discussing hybrids is the modern day equivalent of talking about religion or politics. Sad, really because if you like engineering and technology it really is pretty cool stuff.

MTUpower · #41 12-23-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowbenz

Discussing hybrids is the modern day equivalent of talking about religion or politics. Sad, really because if you like engineering and technology it really is pretty cool stuff.

No- it's not cool in my mind- what can you do to your hybrid other than drive it and own it? Can you work on it when it's broke? Can you find spare parts? Can you do anything other than be a nerd and be smug? (Not you personally btw)

awsrock · #42 12-23-2008, 11:05 PM

I'll take back my hybrid-tin-can remark, I think we were arguing about different things though.

Anyway, my only problem with hybrids is the way uninformed people treat them, (and when I say uninformed, I mean 20 year olds that could care less about what they drive, yet somehow think they know everything) i.e. overlooking other factors that can save them money, etc. Of course, not everyone wants to, or has the ability to, own an old car and work on it themselves. I guess I've just been so impressed with my car that I find it aggravating when diesels are basically left in the dust because of the bad rep they had back in the 70s and 80s. I mean, you look at europe and they have plenty of cars that are all diesel that are getting equal to or better mileage than hybrids are, but here people could care less, let alone allow the EPA to completely strangle the performance and efficiency potential of the diesels that actually DO make it over here. And while all these automakers are spending money trying to win the hybrid race, they all HAVE diesel options already!! It's just a matter of getting it here and telling the EPA to worry about other things. Ford works on a Fusion hybrid, while they have a diesel Focus that has amazing specs. Maybe if people weren't so concerned with their 0-60 times, diesels would be more welcomed. It's just baffling to me, but alas, I am a young angry person.

Sorry for the rant.

I will say, though, that it is nice to see more and more hybrid SUVs- sure, they still might not get good mileage, but it is a big improvement!

rwthomas1 · #43 12-23-2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bio300TDTdriver

I would argue that hybrids are way ahead of the TDIs. The TDIs are usually in the shop because of the plugged up intakes, due to the EGR. I can't stop by me Indie's garage without him showing me one.

You are correct that the huge advantage is in city driving, but we can still get 45 mpg on the highway at 70 mph. My wife can get 50 mpg if she keeps it at 60, but I can't drive that slowly.

I don't think of myself as pro hybrid or diesel. Like you said they both have their advantages. I try to defend the good points of the hybrids. When people start talking about tin cans, and replacing batteries, it irks me. They don't know what they are talking about and probably haven't set foot in a new hybrid.

The funny thing is, we were an hour away from purchasing a low mileage '04 Jetta. Someone beat us there with the cash. In hindsight, I probably have a much happier existence with the purchase we made.

What irks me is people who speak of TDI's and don't own one, don't know what they speak of. TDI's usually need an intake cleaning every 100K. So does any other diesel with a functioning EGR at US emissions specs. Our own vaunted MB's have the same issue. Turn down the EGR duty cycle and likely you will never need to clean it. Your indies and idiot My TDI has 110K and never been cleaned, doesn't appear to need it yet. I'm glad you like your hybrid, nothing wrong with that. I like the TDI, its been dead reliable, cheap to maintain, and averages 47mpg. Best ever of 49mpg at 80mph with the AC off. Never under 80mph on the highway. I prefer to give my money to Germans. And yes, I have driven a Prius plenty, neighbor has one and I take them to the train and pick them up in it once a month or so. Decent but I don't want one. Just isn't Teutonic enough.

RT

Bio300TDTdriver · #44 12-23-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

No- it's not cool in my mind- what can you do to your hybrid other than drive it and own it? Can you work on it when it's broke? Can you find spare parts? Can you do anything other than be a nerd and be smug? (Not you personally btw)

Yes I realize you are not quoting me.

I did work on mine. I added a block heater. Sure we only have 20,000 on the car, but there just isn't anything to fix. Change the oil every 10,000-12,000 and drive it. I suppose I'll have to change all 8 spark plugs in another 80,000 miles. Then in another 270,000 miles I may have to change the batteries.

What makes you think I have time to work on a hybrid. The other car in my sig. keeps me too busy to work on anything else. Yeah I know it's a 124. We can save the 123 vs. 124 debate for next year.

Bio300TDTdriver · #45 12-23-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

What irks me is people who speak of TDI's and don't own one, don't know what they speak of. TDI's usually need an intake cleaning every 100K. So does any other diesel with a functioning EGR at US emissions specs. Our own vaunted MB's have the same issue. Turn down the EGR duty cycle and likely you will never need to clean it. Your indies and idiot My TDI has 110K and never been cleaned, doesn't appear to need it yet. I'm glad you like your hybrid, nothing wrong with that. I like the TDI, its been dead reliable, cheap to maintain, and averages 47mpg. Best ever of 49mpg at 80mph with the AC off. Never under 80mph on the highway. I prefer to give my money to Germans. And yes, I have driven a Prius plenty, neighbor has one and I take them to the train and pick them up in it once a month or so. Decent but I don't want one. Just isn't Teutonic enough.

RT

He's an idiot because he shows me plugged intakes. You must have been captain of your debate team.