Greetings,

I use Prestone 5/150 and it's orange. I guess I'm good to go, color wise at least. I meet the color requirement and it has all the goodies for aluminum blocks in the coolant. Of course my block and head is solid cast iron, but what the heck, it meets MB specs, right? The great thing is that I found it on a real sale for $4.00 a gallon.

Charles

[Edited by can-do on 06-10-2001 at 01:26 AM]

However, Orange, Red, Yellow and the others may indicate a lack of phosphate corrosion inhibitors, but just to be sure, read the label.

When I bought my Mercedes and the local dealer's shop tech told me right off the bat that I had the "wrong color" antifreeze in my car's cooling system, my immediate reaction was that he was just some dude trying to sell me Mercedes antifreeze. In retrospect, I see my reaction to that comment was a result of my own ignorance, speculation, and skepticism.

After becoming a member here at MercedesShop, I read several threads about antifreeze that got me to thinking about my own experiences with cooling systems in commercial vehicles, and the problems I have seen that were caused by multiple metallic engine components causing electrolysis, and the cavitation and erosion of engine blocks caused by improper anti-corrosion agents being used in the wrong concentrations, as well as all of the cases of early cooling system failure from using the wrong specialized corrosion additives (SCA) in those engines. It also started me thinking about my experience with marine applications where zinc is used as a sacrificial anode to prevent erosion of outboard drives and other components on boats.

So I started doing some research, and the more research I did, the more I learned about anti-corrosion additives, antifreeze, cooling systems, and how these all can relate to premature engine cooling system failures. I also learned about the companies who make these antifreeze products for our vehicles, and what the differences are in how their products are manufactured, and why. As I learned something new, I posted it here as unbiased information with links supplied so that anyone could see where I got my information from, and what exactly was being stated by the source.

One thing I found out was that the formulation for "Mercedes-Benz Antifreeze Anticorrosion Agent" was arrived at due to the fact that the mineral content, or "hardness" of the water, in Europe is greater than other parts of the world, and the use of a phosphate-based anticorrosion agent in antifreeze (like Prestone has) causes those minerals to "drop out" of solution, form "clumps" and attach to the interior surfaces of the engine cooling system until they build up sufficiently to become structurally unstable, break loose, and then accumulate in restricted cooling system passageways, causing inefficient cooling, eventually resulting in "hot spots" in the engine, and in some cases, blocked coolant passageways. The other effect this process has is to cause the coolant to act as an abrasive "cocktail", causing both electrolysis and erosion that results in premature failure of cooling system components like radiators, heater cores, and water pumps. In fact, it also has a tendency to eat straight through engine blocks via the cylinder wall cooling jackets. This has been a major problem in the commercial vehicle industry, and has also affected Mercedes-Benz motorcars to a great extent.

Primarily, this "Mercedes Antifreeze Anticorrosion Agent" formulation was developed as a result of three basic factors. One, all engines need to be cooled properly and water does the best job of doing that, but it also freezes, boils, and is itself corrosive. And when you add straight ethylene glycol, which is also highly corrosive, that makes it even more destructive; and that is why antifreeze/coolant requires a corrosion inhibitor. Two, the engines in Mercedes' and their cooling systems are primarily aluminum, with some copper, iron, and brass, which together add special problems with corrosion and electrolysis. So finally, the primary cooling agent itself needs to be water with an antifreeze agent added to reduce boilover and freezing that now necessitates the inclusion of additives to add lubrication, and to prevent electrolysis, corrosion and erosion of these various metallic cooling system components while not adversely reacting to the variations in mineral content in the water itself.

So when Mercedes tells you in your owner's manual that "Your vehicle contains a number of aluminium parts. The use of aluminium components in motor vehicle engines necessitates that anticorrosion/antifreeze/coolant used in such engines be specifically formulated to protect the aluminium parts. (Failure to use such anticorrosion/antifreeze/coolant may result in significantly shortened service life." they know what they're talking about, because they did the research after having the problems present themselves, and they had to come up with real answers for those problems.

When they add "While there may be a number of anticorrosion antifreeze/coolants available which will provide the requisite protection, all such products have not been tested for Mercedes-Benz vehicles. The following product, however, is recommended for use in your car: Mercedes-Benz Anticorrosion/Antifreeze Agent.", they are not saying that Prestone is ok, nor are they saying that Prestone didn't pay them to test Prestone antifreeze. They are stating it in that manner as a matter of legalities. First, Mercedes cannot by law specify that you must use their products in your car; and second, if they claimed that anyone else's product(s) weren't safe or acceptable, they would be setting their company up for lawsuits from every antifreeze manufacturer that didn't make product for them. Besides, there are federal laws about restriction of trade, etc. Every document ever written in the history of man is open to interpretation, but I believe that the intrepretation of this section of the Mercedes owner's manual in this instance is seriously biased, and even if I did agree with Wm. Lewallen on the selection of antifreeze, I could not in good faith agree with the basis for this particular thread.

I honestly admire and respect both Larry Bible and Wm. Lewallen for their expertise and years of experience with Mercedes-Benz vehicles. I have no reason to doubt either one of them when they claim that the use of green colored antifreeze with a phosphate based corrosion inhibitor, regardless of brand name, has worked well for them. But I would suggest that anyone who believes that their experiences are the norm with regard to Mercedes cooling system maintenance and failures do their own research on this subject, and come to their own conclusions for maintenance of their own cars, based on where they live, and whether or not they choose to use demineralized water or plain tap water mixed with whatever antifreeze in their Mercedes cooling system.

Actually, I doubt if most people have even taken the time read half of the material available on this subject in the archives on this site, or to click on the links provided. Anyone with a logical mind, and better than a "5th grade" education who follows those links, reads the information, makes the same phone calls to the companies, and asks similar questions based upon pure common sense should arrive at the same conclusion I have. I've got to say that what I resent most is snide comments from other members bent on disproving something that they haven't done any independent research on. It shows no respect for the effort some of us have put into trying to find objective answers to this issue.

Finally, at the risk of repeating myself once too often, EVERY manufacturer of antifreeze in this country has now developed a formulation of an ethylene glycol base antifreeze with an organic acid corrosion inhibitor trying to imitate Glysantin. You can call it "extended life" antifreeze if you like, but every company makes at least one, even Prestone. And they make it because it's better for vehicle cooling systems like those in commercial vehicles and automobiles that are now being made the way cars have been made in Europe for some time, like Mercedes-Benzes. BASF was the pioneer of this corrosion inhibitor technology with the Glysantin formulation, and all their competitors are just playing "catch-up". Time will tell, but when I state that phosphate-based corrosion inhibitor antifreezes are on the way out, I have good reason to do so, because phosphate is just as outdated as the nitrates, amides, and all of the other corrosion inhibitors that used to be part of automotive antifreeze and aren't anymore.

I firmly believe that there is no better antifreeze anticorrosion agent made today than what is sold by Mercedes Benz, and I say that after having done a great deal of research on the subject. So go buy whatever's on sale to save a few pennies, or whatever antifreeze you want to put in your car, but please don't ever imply that I am recommending the factory product because I'm some idiot who doesn't know any better, or that I'm a person with more money than good sense. There's an old expression "don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mocassins". Put on some mocassins, and let's take a walk, shall we?

[Edited by longston on 06-08-2001 at 11:57 PM]

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

Wow. That pretty much sums up the whole enchilada (Scott) Longston. I hope that your posting could somehow become the standard reference when this subject comes up again; and unfortunately, you know it will. Your comprehensive and objective posting really should put this matter to bed once and for all.

Charles,
It's nice to hear that you use Prestone antifreeze, but I didn't know it was orange. I guess that's the new formulation. You say your block and head is solid cast iron, you must drive a MB diesel. But how about the radiator? Is it aluminuim?
Scott,
You have again written a long and interesting treatise on why we should use MB antifreeze(Zerex). Me and my 5th grade class agree with a lot of the things you write about, but some of the things you write are hard to believe. For instance; about "things" droping out of non-MB antifreeze causing clumps to cling to the interior of the cooling surfaces and blocking cooling passageways, cause hot spots,etc. I have rebuilt over 50 MB engines over the past 34 years and I have never seen anything like the things you mention. Those engines that I have rebuilt have had all the different brands of antifreeze, and I was always amazed at how clean the interior of the engines were.Have you ever rebuilt a Mercedes engine?
I know you have done a lot of reading on antifreeze, and I admire you for doing it. But me with my 5th grade education do not believe all I read. If I did I would be a multi-millionair, and I would be cured of all my aches and pains.
Scott, you keep mentioning the use of "a phosphate based anticorrosion agent" in antifreeze(like Prestone)that causes "things" to drop out and stop up the cooling system.I don't know which phosphorus compounds are used in antifreeze solutions, but phosphoric acid is a fairly weak organic acid, and I don't think it's harmfull to aluminium. It is good for removing rust(but citric acid is better, and contrary to someones prior statement, it will not harm your skin.) Phosphoric acid is used in the food industry to clean their processing equiptment.
These things about drop outs clogging the cooling system I have never seen, but then, I have not read all the literature. Just experence. Sometimes we need to get out and smell the grass. Not necessarly the green grass. How about Bluegrass? Kentucky Bluegrass.
Read your owners manual, and by all means read the labels on the "other" antifreeze brands. Choose wisely, and I know you will choose Zerex. So be it.
Bill Lewallen;Lexington,Ky.
Home of Valvoline Oil - Maker of Zerex

Greetings Bill and Scott and everyone else,

First, to answer Bill's question. Prestone does make an orange antifreeze called 5/150 extended life that contains no phosphates,nitrites,silicates,borates or amines. This antifreeze says it's formulated for use in all cars and light duty trucks containing aluminum or brass radiators, even those using modine solder. The radiator in my car I can say with most certainty is made from brass or a copper composite, at least the interior tubing is. The cooling fins are probably a aluminum composite of some type.
I don't care to enter into a debate with anyone on what type of anything to use on their Benz, personally I could care less if some folks out there want to run straight hard water through their system. I think each person feels comfortable using whatever they were either taught to use by let's say their Dad or shop foreman or maybe even a neighbor that had good luck with something that they had used. If you want to make an informed decision use Scott's time consuming research and use what the book recomends, doesn't require a brain surgeon for that one, just someone that can read their manual. As far as water that gets mixed with your antifreeze, I'm a stickler on that one. Just travel across the States a few times and you'll find water that's so hard that you can almost see the rocks hitting the bottom of your glass. Phosphates are primarily used in antifreeze to soften the water for the folks out there just running the tap to meet the 50/50 or 70/30 mix to fill their radiator. Why do you think they put them in laundry detergent? It actually is suppose to hold hard water particles in suspension, but it does a poor job unless the company goes overboard on it's content, then you end up with the particles clumping together actually tearing your clothes apart as it's being scrubbed by them. So Scott, you're right about that one. Over time hard water mixed with antifreeze will cause the hard particles to drop out and form on cooling parts. The most common parts are those made from aluminum like radiator cores, if yours happens to be aluminum, return elbows (we all get that one), pump fins and heads if you also have an aluminum head. Heat and coolant level also plays an important roll on how fast these hard particles will attach themselves to these parts. If you're running low on antifreeze and the mix wasn't right to start with, you go into an overheat condition where hard particles will attach themselves to aluminum surfaces, like a welding affect. Also a neglected system that has gone several years without service has lost it's inhibitors and becomes acidic and basically the hard particles are now attached almost permanently to your aluminum parts, time to bring out the CLR to clear the passages. Engine wise, I can't say I've seen any gas engines that I've torn down look bad internally, but have seen all the attaching coolant items ate away at because of owner or coolant neglect.
For those Benz owners I'd say, If you don't want to use MB antifreeze in your engines cooling system, better know what parts are made of on your engine and cooling system , and where you can expect damage, if any to occur. The last note I would like to add is also the frequency at which you drive your car and the distances it travels when you do get behind the wheel. Like everything else on these or any other cars, short trips cause more harm than good. If your Benz is used like mine on a daily basis, commute to work and back with a daily average of 90 miles, then you get all fluids to operating temps and keep them there for a duration. If your trips are a few miles a day, I'd take the other car to work, simply because a diesel in particular was never designed for stop and go driving, but economy and warm running fluids and long hauls.

Charles

[Edited by can-do on 06-10-2001 at 01:34 AM]

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• SCROLL DOWN..

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WeatherPro Antifreeze/Coolant
Yamacool Prediluted Cold Weather High Performance Anti-Freeze
Zerex DEX-COOL Antifreeze/Coolant
Zerex DEX-COOL Antifreeze/Coolant 50/50 Prediluted
Zerex Extended Life Extreme Heavy Duty Pre-charged Antifreeze/Coolant 3/300
Zerex Extended Life Heavy Duty Formula Antifreeze/Coolant 50/50 Prediluted
Zerex G-05 50/50 Antifreeze Coolant
Zerex G-05 Antifreeze Coolant
Zerex Original 50/50 Prediluted Antifreeze Coolant
Zerex Original Antifreeze Coolant
Zerex Pre-Charged Heavy Duty Antifreeze Coolant 50/50 Prediluted


THIS IS FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA ALONE ...CAN WAIT FOR THE AIR COOLED MB

You just won the prize for the oldest post update.

__________________
1987 300TD 309, xxx 2.8.2014 10,000 mile OCI


Be careful of the toes you step on today, as they may be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow. anonymous

“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter, and those who matter won’t mind.” Dr. Seuss

This thread resurrection has got Rev. T.D. Jakes all happy too! See?

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'81 MB 300SD, '82 MB 300D Turbo (sold/RIP), '04 Lincoln Town Car Ultimate

Sooner or later every car falls apart, ours does it later!
-German Narrator in a MB Promotion Film about the then brand new W123.

It's all about "the show" these days......

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

Surely you have also heard "the message." The one that says, "Send money so we can reach more people with 'the message.'"

Seeing as you're in the DFW area, you know all about his shows, umm, I mean sermons.

Let's see what ole' Creflo has to say about that.



Well, his last name IS Dollar!

__________________
'81 MB 300SD, '82 MB 300D Turbo (sold/RIP), '04 Lincoln Town Car Ultimate

Sooner or later every car falls apart, ours does it later!
-German Narrator in a MB Promotion Film about the then brand new W123.