Purchased the last pieces of equipment to get our reflector replating service operational today. Will be down in the Carlstadt, New Jersey area to pick it up on the 27-29th of this month weather permitting. If anyone in the area needs something moved on the way down let me know. Maybe I should load up some canadian beer? Seems popular with the natives of that region.

Do you repair damaged reflectors?

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AJ
82 300D
81 240D
76 450SE
86 300SDL

That's cool. I've been using reflective/chrome duct tape.

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1973 280 - Current Project Car
1979 240d - 100% Stock
1982 380sl - 100% Stock
1985 190e 2.3 - Heavily Modified

Thats a tough one. It would depend on the type of damage. In many cases we would substitute a dud if it your reflector was really damaged if one was available.. I would not like to see something sub standard go out. Only if we felt it could be restored to like new or better would I be satisfied. We simply want to treat each individual the same way as we would like to be treated. Simple philosophy but hard to find. .We still will not be operational for a few months yet.

I read your thread some time ago and thought it was a creative home approach. Far better than a failed reflector at least from a safety perspective. Your reflectivity index is not bad at all from my knowledge as well.
It also helped make me aware that a good reflector service was needed and long overdue. I have enough of my own that need restoration.
After extensive examination we felt the longest lasting restoration method possible should be used. Yet still affordable by the customer. We have been chasing equipment since then. New equipment was prohibitive in cost without impacting the prices unreasonably. It has been a hard chase but is just about over.
In our research we stumbled across a way that a reflective surface could be applied at home with a small kit. We may also market that kit if the materials can be aquired at the right price.
It is not the way we will be doing them but reflectivity should approach the originals and look good. We will extensivly test this at some point to see if it is a resonable proposition for the customer. We will not be using this system ourselves.
Much would depend upon the marketability cost factor to make it a practical alternative. What really concerns me is we may have to supply a very special tool that must be returned after use. It is just too expensive to incorporate in a kit. I am not sure yet if the tool can be bypassed. We will try. There are no throwaway versions of it in the marketplace at present. .
We will be trying hard to provide a needed speciallised service for people. Rather than just chasing your money.
I am just beginning to enjoy an expression that pertains to specialised services as well.
We will soon start to know more and more about less and less. Thats until we know everything about nothing. At that point we are true rocket scientists as well

I am not too sure about the needs of reflector restoration - or production. I always thought it was chrome.

I have been taking apart late model M-B headlights in prepping for a summer project to install HID xenon lights into my w123 - and it looks like all of the HID lights are just vacuum metalized - even the inner light with faceted reflectors...

My old w123 light seemed to be more of a dipped or chromed process...

What is your process? I have worked with a system called CosmaChrome - and it can produce a nice chrome look...just curious - also can you school us on the difference between a reflector coating and a chrome / vacmetal job?

Jake

Chrome should never be used as the reflectivity index is very poor. Only about 50 percent of a bright silver coating for example or mirror finish.
We have settled on vacuum metalization. The melting and vapourization of metals in an intense vacuum enviroment. This process properly used by persons intent on good results offers the customer a much better usable reflector lifespan in my opinion than any other currently available method . It is strong enough when no shortcuts are taken. Especially when protected properly by us with a very hard coating we expect good durability. If we were processing more general items we could not use this protective coating. Just impractical and too expensive to use for many reasons in high volume situations. A reasonable length warranty is also practical because of the better coating.
It is the same process as used on new car headlights in fact. Less the harder coating. Including the sealed beam type that probably have no protective coating but are using the vacuum to inhibit oxidation. And total isolation of the coating to protect it. We will be using a new purchased propietary mix of metals to produce a superior result as well.
For purists with really old antique cars we also can use plated silver but any warranty past three years is not practical with silver. They may start to slowly tarnish about then. As well just too much prep work is involved. . The overall cost has to be much higher.
As for volume it is not too important. Basically this is being set up for my son in law with a bad unrepairable back. Also as stated the service is required yet business does not cater to it because it requires you to pay attention to do it well. There are far more lucrative areas for this application that are much easier is also another important factor.
This identical process is utilized for many things at present and has negligable polution problems to deal with.

Ah - Vacmetal...as the w211 lights.

I am very familiar with Vacmetalizing...amazing process...
Jake

Cosmochrome or whatever by several names might be the product that duplicates chrome appearance yet is usually silver.
If it were truly chrome it would be no good for reflectors. This type of thing was what we thought might get by for home application.
There were two downsides for its application on reflectors we will have to examine carefully. I suspect the optic test for reflectivity will be lower than I would like to see. Yet may still be adaquate. Just too early to tell.
Still we may be able to modify the formula a little. The other problem that looms large is to defeat the need for a two nozzle application gun. I am unsure at this point if the gun is really required or only hype.
If it can be overcome there is a possibility of a small kit being made up and sold. In small quantities the material is too expensive right now. The exception might again be buying it in large quantities and dividing it down to smaller units. We will not be in a position to look at this even for awhile. It may also be too hard to apply by first time users with any consistancy. The average guy will coat perhaps only one set of reflectors in a lifetime if any.

Although silver is a better reflective coating, aluminum is widely used for vac and sputter coatings for reflectors. We used silver for mirrors, but looked at other coatings also for reflective index as well as color temperature. Aluminum worked well for automotive light reflectors, especially tail-lamps.

The probem that I think you'll find in most restorations is damaged reflectors. A rusty surface, even slightly, will not be smooth enough to avoid scattering the light after the deposition of the reflective metal. Buffing the base metal to remove damaged/pitted material will also be a problem as it changes the optics of the reflector.

The appearance of a cleaned and re-plated reflector should be good, regardless of its optical qualities.

Best of luck with the undertaking, it sounds like a challenging project.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

Babymog, that was a pretty good overview of reality. The colour temperature that is not all that important with cars is now being changed by propietory metal mixes. The driving force seems to be the requirement for accurate color temperatures for people that examine medical biopsies like patholigsts. Also operating room reflectors demand a certain range of colour temperature as well. There are many other examples.
We have been playing a little too.. We have been experimenting with rapid not common methods to deal with irregular reflector surfaces like pitting. It seems so far with some success. This had to be tackled to keep the cost to the the end user reasonable as well as make us look credible. Hours of hand labour or heat distortion of the reflector I considered not practical or desirable. We also thought the best way to retain the optic qualities of the reflector as much as possible was to get rid of some of the older aproaches.
As I previously mentioned this service is required for used reflectors as it is too easy to move into easier more lucrative applications. We want you to get something well done for your money. That is a simple tangiable goal I can relate to. I have always enjoyed value for the money expended.
The reflectivity index should be about 97 percent for the bright alloy mix versus 95 percent for bright silver. They are so close if done properly as to be considered the same for all practical purposes. Chromium or chrome are down at about 57 percent reflectivity. We can do the first two by vacuum metalization. We also have the equipment to do electroylitic deposition of silver as well. The enviroment issues with that are becoming a greater nightmare all the time though.
The last thing I want to deal with are the pleasant enviroment people that enforce and interfere with your processes. It seems if there is no propblem they will expend the effort to make one. I have no wish to participate in their make work projects for self justification of their existance. That was the primary reason we also settled on the vacmetalization. There is no polution control problem at all with that part of the process. Even they cannot find something that does not exist yet over time they may still give it the old college try.

Interesting subject. I was at UC LBL and we sputtered gold onto glass at a partial pressure in order to make gold black, a non reflective yet conductive coating that traps electrons and doesn't give off secondary electrons in particle detectors and that sort of thing (used in a research laboratory). The same chamber when pumped down to a good vacuum was used to sputter aluminum. A small crystal blank (connected to a oscillator) was placed in the stream of material being sputtered and that gave a good relative indication of the amount of material coming off. Otherwise its hard to estimate the depth of the coating. I always wanted to recoat a big WW2 landing light that had some flaking in the coating. It was pre-sealed beam. I see old Marchal headlights and Lucas tri-bar headlights from big British cars that sell for hundreds of dollars even in unrestored condition and know someone out there in the world is able to recoat the reflectors.
The environmental people are in a position to destroy businesses and they will if they get a chance to flex their regulations. Better keep any plating chemicals at home in the cellar or garage!

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'95 E320 Wagon my favorite road car. '99 E300D wolf in sheeps body, '87 300D Sportline suspension, '79 300TD w/ 617.952 engine at 367,750 and counting!

Dieseldiehard, You are another one that has summed up reality. Fortunatly the electroplating baths are small and will be kept out of the prime location. Athough I suspect their use will be very minimal.
Your aircraft landing light is a good example though. If the color match were off with alloy mixes. Lets say you wanted to display it or some other critical application where the exact colour of silver was required for example. We also should be able to vacmetalise in silver as well if the end effect is identical to bright electroylic applied silver. If not than into the plating baths.
We would mail you coated samples for consideration for approval before doing it. Especially if you were having something special and somewhat unique like that done for example. We have tried to implement in planning to broaden out the service a little to meet customer expectations as soon as we start.
For fellow mercedes buffs information if you were not aware. There is a somewhat new emergence of garage art. Or should I say reconditioned car lights are starting to become part of that now. Something out there is driving old light prices . Lights from the 20s and 30s are quite high in my opinion at the moment. I just could not see that many being used for car restoration so I checked. You might want to grab a set at a flea market this summer in your travels if cheap and before they dissapear.
Try for a set on a crossbar and early ford lights are the common ones it seems. I guess the right set could look spectacular on a garage wall. I have yet to see them used this way myself. Yet I can understand it.
People in general like shiney things in my opinion and chrome in general has dissapeared from cars. Indeed it may not be long now until the younger generations come up to us and ask about all the chrome strips on our 123-126cars. Those strips have become a thing of the past as well. Anyone out there run across this yet? I lead a sheltered lfe. It could be semi regional in nature.
One more small item. The strips and trim on our mercedes cars are stainless with a chrome coating. Be extra careful when sanding around them if still on the car. Mask properly with a good choice of tape. They cannot be pokished out like common 100 per cent stainless steel mouldings and trim. Chrome scratches fairly easy as well. It takes the chrome layer off or scratches it in areas and you have two shades of metal. I found this out on one of my 114s. I suspect it is the same on 123s and 126s. Probably everyone else knows this. Of course I had to learn the hard way. Just one more little upscale detail that came on an expensive car originally.
I know that once we actually start production that a thread like this cannot be run here as it would smack of two much commercialization in my opinion. On the otherhand we have so many members with non sealed beam lights I feel it important for them to have a good understanding of what reflector refurbishment is all about.
Many of our members have a broad experience base in life so they help by the contribution of their knowlwdge as well. These types of in depth understandings are partially responsible for this sites present status as the #2 site. Quite an acomplishment in itself in my opinion. It is the members themselves that have made it happen.
Where else could one find those periodic oil threads after all.