Is the oil cooler *really* necessary? - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

bgkast · #46 02-17-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

How many engines have you designed?

I tend to think the Germans back in the fatherland who built these cars were pretty smart...

Don't worry...he's an engineer.

So am I, but I'm the kind of engineer that believes in using a FACTOR OF SAFETY.

Pequod · #47 02-17-2007, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn D.

Y'all,

I know that such an impertinent, provocative, and sacrilegious question is sure to get MB believers riled-up, but my question is a serious one. My '84 300td will never see autobahn or track use, and unlikely to see anything more than the lightest of towing. Given my experience with oil temperatures on other vehicles, I can't see how it's really necessary for my 300td. The lines are leaky on my 300td, so I'm seriously considering deleting it and looping or otherwise bypassing/removing the circuit. FWIW, I will keep the parts and ensure that any modifications are reversible.

So, does anyone have actual experience with the necessity of these for normal commuting use? By "actual experience," I mean actual observance of oil temperatures on a gauge.

Sorry, but answers like "MB put it on, so it's necessary," "I have heard they are good to have," or "If you move to Saudi Arabia, you will need it" aren't arguments I'll consider valid.

Thanks in advance,
Shawn

......President Lincoln had a saying for positions like yours." Better to be thought of as a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt."

Shawn D. · #48 02-17-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

How many engines have you designed?

I tend to think the Germans back in the fatherland who built these cars were pretty smart...

Nice straw man argument!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

Point is, oil reaches places where coolant can't, ring land, top end, every nook and cranny in the engine, and best of all, it has heat transferring ability, so why not let it do its good job, even if your coolant temp is low, its not an indicator of what the actual temps are in critical area.

Point is, if the oil cooler thermostat never opens during the driving conditions I encounter, it doesn’t matter whether the oil cooler is present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgkast

Don't worry...he's an engineer.

So am I, but I'm the kind of engineer that believes in using a FACTOR OF SAFETY.

Well, are you also the kind of engineer who understands that if a component never comes into use during certain conditions, it’s extraneous for those conditions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pequod

......President Lincoln had a saying for positions like yours." Better to be thought of as a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt."

Well, if I ever had any doubt about this community being sanctimonious about Mercedes engineering, all doubt is now removed!

What I don’t understand is how none of you comprehend that I’m agnostic on the necessity of the oil cooler for my operating conditions. I have never said “It is not necessary” – I asked “Is it necessary?” Do any of you understand the difference between a statement and a question?

Gurkha · #49 02-17-2007, 09:50 PM

So since you ASSUME that your cooler will never come on, I take it you drive in a climate controlled environment, fact of the matter is the oil cooler will come on even in colder climate if the engine has seen stress and the temps in critical areas creep up, you will then have no protection, the oil cooler sitting inside the engine bay is not doing any harm, not does it take up significant real estate inside, what it does though is give you the layer of protection which MBZ engineers originally intended after their extensive tests in all sorts of conditions.

#50 02-17-2007, 09:51 PM

I think the notice at the bottom of the screen says it all: "MercedesShop.com, LLC takes no responsibility whatsoever for any technical assistance offered by anyone. The Risk is 100% yours."

kerry · #51 02-17-2007, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

So since you ASSUME that your cooler will never come on, I take it you drive in a climate controlled environment, fact of the matter is the oil cooler will come on even in colder climate if the engine has seen stress and the temps in critical areas creep up, you will then have no protection, the oil cooler sitting inside the engine bay is not doing any harm, not does it take up significant real estate inside, what it does though is give you the layer of protection which MBZ engineers originally intended after their extensive tests in all sorts of conditions.

Does Tempo put the oil cooler on the 616 when they put it in their vans?

Shawn D. · #52 02-17-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

So since you ASSUME that your cooler will never come on...

Please point me to where I assumed that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

... fact of the matter is the oil cooler will come on even in colder climate if the engine has seen stress...

Prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

... and the temps in critical areas creep up, you will then have no protection...

"No" protection, huh? That's absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

... the oil cooler sitting inside the engine bay is not doing any harm, not does it take up significant real estate inside, what it does though is give you the layer of protection which MBZ engineers originally intended after their extensive tests in all sorts of conditions.

Sure, I agree with all of that, but that's not the premise of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

I think the notice at the bottom of the screen says it all: "MercedesShop.com, LLC takes no responsibility whatsoever for any technical assistance offered by anyone. The Risk is 100% yours."

Yep, I realize the risk is 100% mine. I'm not asking anyone to assume any risk for this.

waybomb · #53 02-17-2007, 10:06 PM

Nothing is necessary. Pull the muffler off. Take the windows out. Remove the parking brake. Who needs a trunk seal? Don't keep extra money in your pocket. Don't change your underwear before you go out. Go ahead and step on every crack in the sidewalk or walk under a ladder. Whatever.

Jeesh - if ya wanna bypass, go ahead, it is your car and it is America.

Some of us know what happens when oil gets too hot, can not predict the future, and thus sometimes even install oil coolers after-the-fact just because we never know what will happen next, where we will have to drive, how we will have to drive, etc. Maybe you'll take up professional bank robbing and will need to be WOT for hours evading the cops. Who knows?

I guess you should find a board for interested in Tribology if you are looking for a solid argument.

How do you know it is not opening, even a little bit? Is it instant-on; instant- off? How is it calibrated? What are the specs on that calibration? Are you certain your oil is not getting too hot?

Try this - cut the line on the cooler and drive around all day. If it didn't leak any oil, well, then your oil must have been cool enough because the t-stat didn't let it go through.

Gurkha · #54 02-17-2007, 10:07 PM

Have you seen ring land failures due to high temps, also valve guide and piston scuffing, this is all due to the oil break down and also because the oil was unable to take the temps away, hey, while you are removing the oil cooler, why not also remove the radiator, now that would be a nice mod, since your operating conditions are quite cool, the air will cool your engine and it won't need the coolant to circulate as the T stat would not open due to low temps, sounds good

Hatterasguy · #55 02-17-2007, 10:15 PM

Have you read the 617 FSM to see when the T stat that control the oil flow opens up? Like I said before on the 603 its fully opened at 90C if my memory serves me. This occurs during normal highway driving; do you drive your car on the highway ever?

Like I said before if its a $500 car by pass it, its cheap enough that if it blows after a year you can just junk it.

thorsen · #56 02-17-2007, 10:21 PM

Stop feeding this troll. He just wants to argue.

Shawn D. · #57 02-17-2007, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybomb

Nothing is necessary. Pull the muffler off. Take the windows out. Remove the parking brake. Who needs a trunk seal? Don't keep extra money in your pocket. Don't change your underwear before you go out.

Well, if the exhaust never made it to the muffler due to a big-ass hole, removing it would not make any difference. If I always drove around all the time with the windows down, removing them would not make any difference. If I never used the parking brake, removing it would not make any difference. If I always drove around with the hatch open, removing the seal would not make any difference. If I never needed money, removing it would not make any difference. However, I have evidence for the functioning of those things and my need for them. As to the underwear, if I never showed my underwear in public, changing it would not make any difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybomb

How do you know it is not opening, even a little bit?

I never said I knew it wasn't opening!

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybomb

Try this - cut the line on the cooler and drive around all day. If it didn't leak any oil, well, then your oil must have been cool enough because the t-stat didn't let it go through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

... hey, while you are removing the oil cooler, why not also remove the radiator, now that would be a nice mod, since your operating conditions are quite cool, the air will cool your engine and it won't need the coolant to circulate as the T stat would not open due to low temps, sounds good

The more you folks extrapolate this to absurd extremes, the more it is that you are the ones who look silly when trying to make me look silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Have you read the 617 FSM to see when the T stat that control the oil flow opens up? Like I said before on the 603 its fully opened at 90C if my memory serves me. This occurs during normal highway driving; do you drive your car on the highway ever?

No, I haven't read the manual. However, two folks here have said it opens at 110C and I have no reason to doubt that unless someone can point me to a verifiable source. Yes, I drive on the highway, and when I have the oil temperature gauge installed, I will be able to verify what the temperature actually is on the highway, in the summer.

waybomb · #58 02-17-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorsen

Stop feeding this troll. He just wants to argue.

ya, what he said.

#59 02-17-2007, 10:54 PM

From the OM617.95 FSM:

Quote:

Starting at an oil temp. of approx 110*c the thermostat (11) starts to displace control valve (12), which arrives at it's end position at approx. 125*c. In end position, the direct flow toward combination filter element is locked except for a given quantity of oil (g). This quantity of oil is enough to guarantee lubrication of engine at low outside temperatures, when continuous flow in oil cooler is widely obstructed by viscous oil.

Quote:

On engine 617.950 (W116) a 95*c thermostat has been installed in oil filter up to engine end number 019718. Here, thermostat control starts at appox. 95*c and ends at 110*c.

Shawn D. · #60 02-17-2007, 11:05 PM

ForcedInduction,

Thanks for taking the time to extract that from the FSM!

-Shawn