No, by their design diesel engines always have excess air in their combustion chambers.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Well, at that price, it is a hard sell. Hell, even Europe has only 42% of the cars being diesel. Like I said, at 104K vs a comparable unit less than 50K, how do you entice people? I tried the 99 E300 and frankly, with the way things are, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have. The diesel costs me 8.967 cents per mile and gas in a 99 C280 costs me 10.12 cents per mile. Considering the hassle of diesel being more stinky around the filling station and that is assuming you can find a filling station since most don't carry diesel unless they are truck stops, I'm not sure it is really worth it. I do have to keep getting gloves for the fill ups and try finding the cheapest source of diesel since it can vary by 20+ cents a gal. BTW, that is with the C280 getting 25 mpg on premium gas. It comes even closer if the vehicle takes regular gas.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

has an article stating that the "engine alone won't meet the 2008 requirements yet, but we need ulsd to do it, but we know how to meet the standards", dieter zetsche, chirman of dc, says.

the article mentions that the new v-6 bluetec will get better than the current cdi 27/37 but no specific numbers are mentioned.

isn't it interesting that this country won't sign the kyoto accord for less emissions from industry but will set limits for the limited number of diesels. all we have to do is wait for the truck manufacturers to scream and the requirements will be reduced.

__________________
currently
[1981 300 td tdidi 165500 dark brown/palamino-Brownie-mine-3k miles of ownership
1983 240d 162+++ Anthricite grey w/ henna red interior and hella lights-wifes car-Red

the above two cars are for sale
and can be seen on the cars for sale thread here. pix also available.


240d-144+ Manilla Yellow w/ palmino interior-greasecar kit-Blondie-the college kids car

23" gt 21 speed still on original tires-still got the nubs
21" khs tandem

Sounds disappointing for the CDI since my 99 E300 is rated at 26/36.

I'm glad we didn't sign that stupid accord. It would peanilize us while gettign other places that weren't so industrialized big money by selling us their polution points. Also, if it was so good, why wasn't China and India signing it? I suppose the environmental whackos could get the diesel hamstrung but not throughout the country. Either they will scream and the requirements will be reduced or they will grow a pair (yeah right) and stop selling their vehicles like MB did with the diesels for 5 years.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I think it's closer to 50%, but only? I'd say that's quite a lot.

Gasoline actually stinks a lot more while refueling because of its volatile nature. Diesel I can barely smell, even when it's spilled. But because of its lack of volatility, yes it tends to remain where it's spilled and that's why some stations have dirty diesel pumps. I've heard you mention your problem of finding diesel stations before and I guess you just live in an unlucky place. Over here, more than 50% of the stations sell diesel and most pumps are clean.

Actually that Kyoto accord is not that stupid, especially when you look at it from a consumption-conscious consumer's view. Because of this accord Europe now lists CO2 as a regulated pollutant which forces car manufacturers to sell vehicles there that have a higher average fuel economy. This means an even greater variety of clean, affordable diesels, including the Smart Cars. We can only dream of most of these vehicles, at least for now.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

When I said that, I meant the even Europe isn't giving up gasoline for diesel. Diesel is good but not soo good that it is better than gas. They all have their strong points and weak points. I don't have to worry so much about freezing but people up north might at some point. However, gas doesn't have the weight bearing ability like diesel. IMO, they are all good and they are all bad depending on what you are trying to achieve.

When I mentioned the stink, I should have said that it lingers on and is harder to get rid off if you spill. All the pumps have diesel on the floor and on the pumps. Who do I have to kill to get 50% of the pumps to serve diesel???? I could give you $1 for each pump that sells diesel and you give me a dime for every one that sells gas and I'll still come out ahead. IIRC, there are probably about 10 or so pumps around Madison that I know of. Most stations don't carry diesel and the cheapest is about 20 miles away. So to get the best price, I have to somehow incorporate that into my travels. Hence the hassle part. The using of gloves isn't somethign I cannot live with, I suppose. I tend to run the fuel down to the last drop before fueling up for gas and I have to change that habit whenever I drive her diesel.

As to Kyoto, I feel it is unfair because we have to comply while China and India don't. We will end up paying for polution credits from other less industralized countries who will benifit. IMO, if we are going to do it, lets ALL do it or not at all. Why were there exemptions especially to India and China who are probably going to be the worst poluters in the next 20 years.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

All the MB dealers here are local to me. closest 2 are a 15-20min drive from home so no biggie. And you forgot about what ive been up to havent you. HOMEBREW BIODIESEL!! if we do get a diesel suv to replace the crapedition its running on good quality homebrew bioD!!so prices on the fuel isnt much of an issue. Yeah i know there is an issue with the price of the vehicle but we really hate the expedition 12mpg!! i mean come on thats just horrible even after changing all the filters and new oil and such no difference still 12mpg! thats not cool. Id rather get a dodge sprinter van that gets 20-24mpg and the sprinter can haul ass! and is more roomy then the expedition. Around here almost every gas station has diesel available sure its more pricey but its around the same as premium gas but thats not a big issue when im going to be running bioD the majority of the time and saving me the money so i can afford to pay for the diesel when i do need it.

__________________
Current:
05 E320 CDI
07 GL320 CDI
08 Sprinter
05 Dodge Cummins
01 Dodge Cummins

Previous
2004 E55 AMG
2002 C32 AMG (#2)
1995 E300
1978 300D
1987 300D
2002 C32 AMG(blown motor :[
1981 300SD
1983 300SD
1987 300SDL
2002 Jetta TDI
1996 S420
1995 S500
1993 190E 2.6
1992 190E 2.3
1985 190E 2.3 5-Speed

Fair enough. I thought you meant that it would spell the demise of the Expidition in USA but you meant your household.

No, I remember you. Yes, it gets 12 mpg. It is a half ton truck with a covered bed and a couple of seats and IRS instead of a solid axel. What do you think it will do? My Vette makes 410 at the wheels and gets close to 20 cruising with me hitting it every now and then. It's going to do that. I bought my SUV to take the dogs and haul a Toy Hauler weighing 8500# with plenty of wind resistance. Personally, I would rather have had an 02 Expidition with a 7.3L Powerstroke. I hauled a boat with an ML500 and it scared me. I turned around and got the Suburban. It was well within the ML's ability to tow or so the book said. If you do get it, it will be twice the price so it had best be more than twice the vehicle it is replacing and if it is, let us know. From the ML issues, I will never buy a vehicle that is the first year whoever makes it. 03 Excursion with the 6.0 Powerstroke sucked and blew headgaskets. 04 and 05 was much better or so they said. Homebrew is only "cheaper" because you massively discount it. It would be akin to saying that my dad owns a gas station and writes off what I use as losses so gasoline is cheaper than diesel. Which in any case, it is.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2003-06-26-berkeley-biodiesel_x.htm

Using biodiesel, though, will make the city budget a little fatter — an estimated $150,000 extra this year. Biodiesel costs about 1 cent extra for every percentage point, meaning the 20% blend is 20 cents more and pure biodiesel costs about $1 a gallon more, said Higgins.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Yeah the reason why it costs more has to due with issues with diesel car and truck manufactures and quality controls. Biodiesel that is sold here or anywere at retail pumps is made from virgin soy oil and has been never used to fry anything so the cost of it is more then free soy oil that is used. But due to quality controls and gel issues they cant commercially sell biodiesel thats been made from used oil because the couldpoint is much higher. New oil has a lower cloud point so its not such a big issue. Yes mixing the bioD with petrol diesel lowers its gel point but manufactures are worried about it destroying there ip's (which it doesnt) so VW only permits the use of B5 in the US and so do many other car companys like jeep and mercedes.

B2-B100 is permitted in Europe because they have quality standards when making biodiesel and its made from rapeseed aka canola oil which has a lower cloud point then soy oil. If it doesnt meet the standard when tested it cant be sold because it can cause fuel filter clogging and performance problems in newer diesels. The US has gotten those ASTM standards but are not always enforced when the bioD is sold so we have quality issues! and its only permitted that you use B5 mixtures in new diesel due to the complexity of there ip's. BUT! if the biodiesel is of good quality and the seller can prove its been ASTM tested then there is no reason why you couldnt put B100 in your new diesel.

The biodiesel market is still young here in the US. The europeans have got it down because of the availability of diesel vehicles there and so its priced the same as petrol diesel. VW encourages the use of BioD in europe because its better for the enviroment and the engine. France is required to put 5% biodiesel in all petrol diesel that is sold!
But VW is scared of the encouragment here in the US because we have homebrewers that may not know how to make the fuel properly so it can destroy the ip. And we dont have our whole process down yet so we have quality issues as well.

The prices will decrease on biodiesel as the market expands and the quality control is enforced. Just have to wait

__________________
Current:
05 E320 CDI
07 GL320 CDI
08 Sprinter
05 Dodge Cummins
01 Dodge Cummins

Previous
2004 E55 AMG
2002 C32 AMG (#2)
1995 E300
1978 300D
1987 300D
2002 C32 AMG(blown motor :[
1981 300SD
1983 300SD
1987 300SDL
2002 Jetta TDI
1996 S420
1995 S500
1993 190E 2.6
1992 190E 2.3
1985 190E 2.3 5-Speed

It shouldn't matter to the newer cars because of the viton lines but B100 should be safe for our cars. I suspect they discourage it because if they can tell you "Your IP is wrecked because you used B25" they don't have to fix it. Not sure about that tho. AFAIK, the Magnuson-Moss act tells me that unless GM can say "Your MAF failed because it got oil on it and the oil came from your K&N" they have to warranty the part. IOW, if I put a supercharger on my truck and the door falls off, they have to warranty it. However, it gives them an "out" if the transmission fails. I know of a case where BMW refused to warranty a repair because they said it was overrevved.

I took some B100 and mixed it with regular diesel. I think I made B40 or something but it was B20 or higher. My mileage did drop. I tried B2 for a while but it was not decisive one way or the other. I also used Woodman's Food Mart gas station diesel and everytime, the power seemed to drop immediately and the mileage went down the toilet. 600 miles on a tank suddenly dropped to no more than 550 if that. Can't be sure what it was but I am not getting it again.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Kyoto is not unfair to us since we're not bound by it either. But I agree it would be to some extent if we did sign up since China and India are not bound by it. The reasoning was that China and India are still 3rd world countries and their economies are more fragile. They would have been bound by Kyoto's second phase though if I remember correctly. I'm not familiar with any further details of the treaty, but I do know every other industrialized country signed up to it, including Russia whose economy I'm sure is more fragile than ours. Kyoto was rejected simply because Bush doesn't believe in global warming and he believes God will save us all. But that's really another topic and I don't wish to hijack this thread.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

If we had signed it, we would be bound by it. We'd be in compliance by buying credits from other nations that aren't using it. Things would probably be the same because we would continue our ways and the less poluting countries would continue their ways except we would be paying them huge sums for their credits. The only difference now being that we aren't buying credits from the less poluting countries and they are not making money off us.

Perhaps. However, as you pointed out, Russia also has a fragile economy and if they can sign, why not China and India? I suspect it is because they don't want to play the shell game and pay big bucks to other less poluting countries. This way, it is a little more palatable to them. I am not even remotely interested in what other countries do. We do it or don't because we thing the net benifit is there. We should not be "monkey see, monkey do".

If Bush had believed God will save us all, he would have signed it and made everyone happy since God will stop all the ill effects of the treaty. All Kyoto really boils down to is a shell game. We will continue to polute at the same rate and those that don't will continue at their rate. The difference between us now and if we had signed it, would be that we would be paying big bucks to other countries that don't polute. If that were the case, the net gain of polution would be zero. If you want a more realistic treaty, it should be based off each country's polution level and we cut it every year by X%. No credits, not sales of points, nothing. I speed. I usually go 20 mph over the limit. So, here is how I should do it. I will buy speeding credits off Granny Smith who drives under the limit. As such, that all balances out, right? If we want to cut it, lets all cut it. Just like the speed limit. You get busted doing 20 over, you pay the fine and don't get to buy speeding credits from anyone. That is more fair and will achieve something.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Ever hear of the Law of Diminshing Returns? You are correct in that there is nothing wrong with bettering a product however only to a point. Last time I checked the latest combustion engines are 97%-98% clean from an emissions standpoint. So any further improvement say "Reducing emissions by 50% more" or some such ad line or sound bite really only means that the engines are 98.5%-99% clean now. So why all the effort to eke out these last little percentage decrease?

It is much simpler to just turn our attention to other pollution sources that are not nearly as heavily controlled. Power plants and other industries can buy pollution credits and continue to pollute as long as its cheaper to buy credits than update equipment. Much like the Kyoto Treaty. Doesn't make sense.

I see no reason why ANY nation should be allowed an excuse to pollute. China and India can argue that "fragile economy" crap but it is just as good an arguement that it is easier, not to mention cheaper, to implement emissions controls NOW in an emerging economy than to fix the problem later.

Last time I checked the UK and Australia didn't sign Kyoto either. And lets not forget to look at energy use in relation to GDP. Despite the fact that India, China, etc. have become manufacturing powers, the US is still one of the major producers of goods in the world. So paying the "lesser emissions" countries credits while we are still producing products they consume doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Its takes energy to produce.

RT

__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

Because it does sound good when you say "I dropped emmissions by 50%". It is like a guy who lasts 1 min with a girl who makes it to 2 mins and says "I doubled my staying time with a girl". Or in another case, lets say I usually last 30 mins with a girl, increased my time by 10 mins and say "I now last 10 mins more than before". Which sounds better? What the Minuteman said or what I said? Of course his ad sounds better until you look at actual numbers.

If I am below my polution qouta, you bet it would make sense since I can do nothing and make money by selling you my credits. Of course, I would be all for it.

They know China and India would probably never sign on to it unless they made it palatable to them and watered it down so that is what they did. It is the show of strength in numbers which the people are trying to hit us with. This is working because people for the treaty all say "every other nation is doing it......". Once again, I am glad we had the stones to stand up and say "This isn't working for me" instead of "Monkey see, monkey do"

If Australia and UK don't do it or anyone else, it is ok. You know that. If USA doesn't do it, we are horrible bastards. That is fact. In fact, we don't even need them criticizing us about it. We have homegrown people to criticize us but turn away when others do it.

I believe that if we are committed to it, lets ALL do it. Like I said, everyone gets measured at their level and cut according to their polution. If not, all we are doing in playing a shell game and getting suckered into paying big bucks. If it is a problem that is global, lets make it a global issue and all do it or nobody does it. But lets make it a fair thing. No free rides at someone's expense.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

AFAIK, the ultimate purpose of the treaty was to reduce global emissions of CO2 to pre-1990 levels by 2012 or so. Again, I don't know the details of it and I believe the credit system was implemented to make it easier for big polluters to cut emissions by doing it gradually. Australia is the only other industrialized country that didn't sign it. You guys make some valid points, but our administration didn't just criticize the treaty and offer better proposals, it rejected the treaty outright because it doesn't believe in mandatory CO2 cuts, despite the fact that the USA is by far the biggest emitter of CO2. This only reinforces the arrogant, self-absorbed image that we have throughout the world.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL