How Does WVO Affect My 616 Engine? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

moon161 · #16 03-23-2009, 06:26 PM

There's a few well known settling methods out there for removing emulsified water, well defined on the frybrid.com and infopop biodiesel forums. The composition of your feedstock (moderate PHO and up) may commit you to heated methods. Look up these:

The Frybrid Still (Prefilter, heat to 140F in a modified water heater, 4-8 hr settle, decant the lower wet layer, final filter & store). Frybrid admin cgoodwin would be your expert on this.

Heated Upflow Settling- a FIFO queu for yer grease. Prefiltered VO is injected into the bottom of a barrel, dry VO is pushed out the top thru a final filter. The barrel is heated to keep PHO liquid and increase the sedimentation velocity of microscopic water droplets. Mercedesshop / frybrid member WD8CDH would be your expert on this. A picture is worth a thousand words here.

Cold Upflow settling: As above, but at ambient temperature. Fat, PHO, crud and water all settle to the bottom of the barrel. Eventually you end up cleaning this out of the barrel. You need to be picky with your feedstock on this, as PHO drops out and you do not burn it. Frybrid / infopop member John_Galt would be your expert on this. A picture helps with this too.

A uniform or top down stratified temperature distribution is key here. Convection eddies will transport water to the top as the cirulation velocity can exceed the sedimentation velocity.

How do you know it's dry: Hot Pan test.

Biodiesel people also bubble or mist wash.

Bubble wash:Tank with VO on top, water on bottom. Air stone in the bottom, leave it on, VO gets clean and dry.

Mist wash: Tank with VO. Spray mist on it. Crud goes down, water does too.

Your goal: Filter down to 1-5 micron (depends who you ask), dry down to 200-700 PPM (depends who you ask).

CarlG · #17 03-23-2009, 06:35 PM

I've been running wvo in my 616 for about a year now with no major problems. (it did recently eat up the seals in my bosch upgrade primer pump) However, I have invested in an Elsbett conversion kit. Here's the website if you're interested: http://www.elsbett.com/us/online-shop.html

I like to let my oil dry first by gravity. I pick up my oil from an oil drum located in an underground parking garage. I know when the restaurant throws out the oil, so after about a day or so I stop by to pick it up. I use a hand crank rotary pump, and I pump all my oil right off the top. I never go deeper than about 2/3 of the way down the barrel. That way, all the water and all the crap sinks to the bottom, and I'm left with fairly pure oil. Then it goes to my filtration system at home where it is first heated using a water heater element suspended inside an oil drum. If the oil has water in it, you can hear it crackle. I bring my oil up to 250 degrees fahrenheit. If the temperature hovers around 212 degrees fahrenheit (the boiling point of water) for a long time, then you know that the oil has too much water in it.

As for particulate matter, I pressure-filter my oil in a 5 micron whole house water filter. I actually wouldn't really worry about this too much, since whatever particles you don't catch yourself will just get caught by the fuel filters in your car. It's just that whole house filters are much cheaper, much bigger, much longer lasting, and much easier to change than the fuel filters in your car.

Another thing that many say is important is to do a titration test, although I have never attempted this myself.

Whatever you do, it is probably a good idea to check out this website: http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
It was an excellent resource for me when I began vegetable oiling.

good luck!

ah-kay · #18 03-23-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mplafleur

I've run three summers primarily 100% filtered to 1 micron WVO. No problems.

Cannot agree with you more.

The car runs quieter, environmentally friendly, save money and no degradation on performance. I doubt WVO will cause engine damage.

#19 03-23-2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEBalles

And, although these engines were designed to run on mineral diesel, I'm sure you've heard, the original diesel engine designed by Rudolph Diesel ran on peanut oil. I'm just trying to get all the facts here.

The FACT is Rudolph Diesel had absolutely nothing to do with the design or development of your engine.

FYI, his first engine ran on Coal Dust.

Quote:

Alright, negative nancy, so is properly refined WVO still "junky nasty" fuel?

Yes, completely. It still contains fats, acids and contaminants that simple filtering and settling can never remove. The Biodiesel process removes all that.

Quote:

I also don't fancy to see what little money I have going into the pockets of those damn oil sheiks.

The city has this little invention called Public Transit, you might look into it. I bet you'll be surprised to find it can actually work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ah-kay

environmentally friendly

Besides the increased smog emissions, increased engine wear, increased fuel consumption, shorter service intervals (oil contamination), shorter vehicle lifespan, lower resale value and improper disposal of waste oil, yeah, its "environmentally friendly".

JEBalles · #20 03-23-2009, 08:50 PM

Well, since I don't live in the city, other than the school bus, which I use most of the time as well as my bicycle, public transportation is pretty much out of the question, otherwise I would primarily use that. And I guess what you define as Diesel's first engine is in question here. The engine presented at the Paris Exhibition in 1900 ran wholly on peanut oil. As for the fats and acids and other contaminants, aren't the fats also burnt, and the acids not significant if the oil's dry?

pawoSD · #21 03-23-2009, 09:13 PM

I have run (and would if it was cost effective) commercial biodiesel.....I have no issue with that, I just won't run the slimy WVO stuff. Its not worth it. So much work and hassle....it would never pay off. I only drive about 150-200 miles a week in my car tops.....and with diesel at $2....cheap.

Oh, and I highly highly doubt diesel will reach $5 this summer....I doubt it will even reach $3 again for quite a while....demand is way down, there's a huge glut of fuel available....so its nice and cheap.

JackG · #22 03-23-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

FYI, his first engine ran on Coal Dust.

Wrong.........it never ran on coal dust, it blew the f#$k up on coal duat

#23 03-23-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackG

Wrong.........it never ran on coal dust, it blew the f#$k up on coal duat

Incorrect, it did run. It was deemed unfeasible to develop due to technology limitations of the time.

#24 03-23-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEBalles

The engine presented at the Paris Exhibition in 1900 ran wholly on peanut oil.

No matter what engine you consider his "first", it has no correlation to the engine Mercedes designed for your car.

Quote:

As for the fats and acids and other contaminants, aren't the fats also burnt

Not completely. Thats part of what leads to combustion deposits like this.

Quote:

and the acids not significant if the oil's dry

Acid is acid, its a harmful contaminant that will eat at the fuel system.

LAbioCars.com · #25 03-23-2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WD8CDH

In general, with properly de-watered and de-contaminated WVO when used with a proper two-tank system, WVO will PROLONG the life of your engine. Cut corners on either and you will cut life from the engine. This is from over 30 years of WVO experience.

i second that

mobetta · #26 03-23-2009, 10:41 PM

60 K+ on it and compression is still over 400psi on all five holes at 305 K when I measured it last. it is prolly time for injectors- but they are original as far as I know.

not to say that you cant ruin an engine in short order if you try( or rather, if you dont try do it right), but it is possible to do properly.

just use clean dry oil and a good 2 tank setup. also the Germans recommend only canola(rapeseed) not soy....

lietuviai · #27 03-24-2009, 12:55 AM

If you read this page in the brochure of the first production diesel powered car by Mercedes Benz, it says you could burn suitable kinds of fuel like... purified vegetable and animal oils..
LINK
It's a cool brochure. Look the entire brochure over when you have a chance.

#28 03-24-2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lietuviai

If you read this page in the brochure of the first production diesel powered car by Mercedes Benz, it says you could burn suitable kinds of fuel like... purified vegetable and animal oils..

Humm, I didn't see anything in there from the 1970's or 1980's.

pimpernell · #29 03-24-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEBalles

I wanna hear from every chipper charlie to every debbie downer about the ups and downs of WVO in the 240D engine (which includes things like IP) on a two-tank conversion. I have not tested my oil for anything and gravity filter down to 5 microns.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Y6HPzygg4v0J:www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/idahovegoilslitreview.pdf+wvo+as+diesel+fuel+damage&cd=21&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Alastair · #30 03-24-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForcedInduction

The FACT is Rudolph Diesel had absolutely nothing to do with the design or development of your engine.

FYI, his first engine ran on Coal Dust.

Yes, completely. It still contains fats, acids and contaminants that simple filtering and settling can never remove. The Biodiesel process removes all that.

The city has this little invention called Public Transit, you might look into it. I bet you'll be surprised to find it can actually work.

Besides the increased smog emissions, increased engine wear, increased fuel consumption, shorter service intervals (oil contamination), shorter vehicle lifespan, lower resale value and improper disposal of waste oil, yeah, its "environmentally friendly".

Forced Induction--

Well, Here's a first... We agree on summit and on the subject of WVO....

(Apart from the increased emissions comment. A PROPERLY set-up engine--Rarely done-- has on average Half the emissions found when same engine run on std. diesel--But, still not as good as Proper BioDiesel fuel....)

Used-cooking-oil will Never be as good as Proper BioDiesel in any engine,--Except maybe the three-pot Elsbett engine specially made for it...

Yes, I have an engine thats done 80 odd K on WVO--possibly more,, I still have the engine--the car fell apart round it. Engine however, is still fine, with good compression numbers so I have kept it and scrapped the car....

Fuel-System Preparation is Essential (This includes Injector work and Timing Alterations....)--if you value the engine and intend to use Veggy-Oil, whether Fresh,-- Or dare I say it, WVO for more than a few K....

Veggy-Oil Burns at a Different Rate, acts differently in the injection system dynamically, and also changes its characteristic from stone-cold to full running temps. These issue MUST be addressed to allow trouble-free operation. A simple DIY Twin-Tank or kit just don't cut it, only helps somewhat.....

FFA's contained in WVO Cannot be filtered out. FFA's are Acidic--Yes, they do burn extremely well--in fact, prolly better than BioDiesel or Std. nos 1, and in some unrelated research, I have run an engine on near pure FFA derived from WVO Bio-Glyc.--Not an M.B.--a Pug XUD9-TE-- (FFA ends up in the glyc. phase as soaps that can be split off by acidulation at a later process stage....)

The Average-content of FFA in used-cooking-oil is between 7 and 12%

However, the FFA's in waste-oil make moisture acidic--Yes, Its possible to neutralise the FFA in used-oil--But Such a PITA to do Properly, And you lose half of your feedstock, so is nearly never done!.

To Properly De-Water, arrange a tank with a circulating-pump, and a heater, (Take all necessary precautions with elect. heating so as to cut power if oil level should fall for whatever reason. Explosions/fires are the result of leaks without safety interlocks/level switches). Arrange a ducted fan to push air through the closed top of the vessel and out to a separate vent. Heat to 100-120 degrees C, while circulating oil. Place spray-head on oil return in top of vessel to increase oil surface-area to air and speed drying...

Over 10 years and more, I have used VWO. But I found in the end, the needed effort to clean, dry and make GOOD outta WVO was almost as much effort as making a Proper and Recognised fuel!!

Hence, I now make BioDiesel, which is 100 times better than just some old veggy from the local chippy filtered through 'J' cloths or bed-sheets that some guys use!

With regards to the 'Old' M.B. manual illustrated earlier with the text including use of Veggy-Oil, (Fresh, NOT Used Cooking-Oil) Looking at the design of the engine, its not fundamentally different from the OM-61x series. It has the 'proper M.B.' type Pre-Chamber and Pintle type injector.....

BTW, That old chestnut of 'Dr Rudy' his engine and the peanut oil, I am just SO sick of hearing......

(If I had drink for every time I have heard some hippy-type say That, I would be a hopeless alcoholic......)

His engine Prototype built at the M.A.N. works, ran on Coal-Dust....

The whole Peanut-oil thing--That was done Purely for POLITICAL reasons.

Exhibition was in Paris, France......
France had Many Colonies. These colonies included many that grew Peanuts and similar crops that could be used to make oils--so lets put That one to bed.........