Opinions on the 450sel's
 

So I've decided to sell my SE and move back into a 116 car. The 126 is a nice car (luxurious, quiet and fancy) but I prefer the look and feel, as well as the more unique styling, of the older car. I had an '80 300SD for a few years and LOVED it, but it rusted out.

I am interested in the '77-'79 450SEL. I know they aren't very popular with the MB crowd, but its the car I have always wanted.

I am familiar with all the normal 116 issues (have type one ACC in my 300D already). What I am interested in, is how difficult these 450s are to work on. I've never heard a professional praise this engine (or chassis, come to think of it) and dont understand why.

Gas mileage isn't an issue as I walk to work, and also have my diesel.

I have read every comment on these cars available online, so I would really like to get some fresh feedback.

Thanks

One questionL Why 77-79? The 73-75's had D-Jet EFI as opposed to K-Jet which, in my opinion/experience, is easier to tune, setup and has fewer issues. Also, the 73-75's had the higher performance cams - in '76 MB switched to "smog" cams that cost the engine 30HP and turned it into a slothlike gashog (compared to its older more powerful brother).

I find my 4.5 VERY easy to work on but, as I said, it's got D-Jet which I find simpler and more straightforward (less parts to go bad, IMO). Other people HATE EFI and prefer CIS, but it's prefference I suppose...

The bottom end of these engines is as bulletproof as it gets, as long as it wasn't run 20k between oil changes or overheated in the past. If there was EVER a bottom-end rebuild (even just new rings) pass it by, chances are that it was either a: seriously abused, b: didn't need the rebuild, c: the rebuild used hard rings or cleared out the hatchmarks that otherwise would still be there.
The weak point is the timing chain guide rails. These are plastic in the newer ones (mine are aluminum-backed rubber, WHY MB didnt stick with that I have no idea). The plastic can crack when the rails get old and fatigued, or the timing chain stretches - as a result, the timing chain will skip on the cam gear and... well, let's just say that valves and pistons don't get together well when they meet :D This is no problem, however, if you replace the rails (3 of them, and they are under $20 for the set). If the engine smokes at ALL, even if it seems heavy, don't pass it buy - it might just be valve stem seals (ESPECIALLY if the plugs have no oil on them). At 100-200k these should be replaced, and guides examined, depending on how it was maintained. Undoubtedly, if they are still original, age alone should say "Replace them"

Sorry if it seems a bit long-winded... but you'd love the 4.5's power in the 73-75's a lot more. I know I did, when I had the smog cams in my 4.5 before I found a good pair of the stocks, I got worse milage, ran hotter, and had less power (ESPECIALLY top-end!)

"One questionL Why 77-79? The 73-75's had D-Jet EFI as opposed to K-Jet which, in my opinion/experience, is easier to tune, setup and has fewer issues. Also, the 73-75's had the higher performance cams - in '76 MB switched to "smog" cams that cost the engine 30HP and turned it into a slothlike gashog (compared to its older more powerful brother). "

I prefer this model year range as the cats are not in the engine compartment, alloy wheels, cruise control, and updated seats. I would prefer K-jet as the parts seem easier to come by (used), and it has a reputation as being much easier to deal with. As far as I can tell , the early K-jet is similar to that on my SE, sans feedback control, an EHA, and an airflow pot, as well as some other electronic updates maybe. Read something about a frequency valve, not sure what its function is.

I have driven a '73 450se, as well as a '77 450sel and a '77 450sl. I felt that they all had adequate power. Very torquey and did not feel like dogs to me at all. Even though the later 450s only have 180 hp, they feel very torquey. not FAST, but powerful, if that makes sense. All these cars were US spec and could chirp the tires on take off.

I have never tinkered with this engine other than changing the spark plugs on one some time ago.

I agree with your comments about rebuilds- seems like valve jobs are the only thing that should be required. I also agree with the valve stem seals comment- had a valve job done on my SE and it cured 90% of an oil consumption issue. Never heard of a 450 with a snapped chain, oddly enough, just the 116 motors.

Any 450sel owners still around?

That's what I was thinking. I started this thread years ago. It makes for some good reaading:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/vintage-mercedes-forum/34391-what-happened-all-w116-73-80-450-sels.html?highlight=happened

Yes, that thread is a classic. Wonder what happened to Amskeptic?
Maybe it's time for another "what happened to the 450sel's."?

Don't know much technically about this series but I do think that they are WAY COOL! I don't know why others dis this car. I think the style is great! Always turns my head (and I'm in LA where we see EVERYTHING car wise).

Yeah, he was a gifted writer. I'd love to see another thread on 450 SEL's. :cool:

Yep, you bet. I love the styling of the W116's. Love the chrome and the upright grill. Classic MB lines. The only other MB that turns my head and has similar bloodlines are the 108/109's.

Plus, the handling of a W116 is superb. The W126 is a whale in comparison.

"Plus, the handling of a W116 is superb. The W126 is a whale in comparison."

Agreed. Seems this is a common sentiment among those who have owned both models. Nautical terms come to mind while at the helm of a 126 car.

From experience owning a '77 280SEL, two excellent features of the 116 come to mind: 1)The window sill is perfectly shaped as an armrest. 2)The driver's door handle and steering wheel are precisely far enough apart so the skillful driver can litterally steer with his leg while soaring down the highway straight as an arrow in flight at speeds over 80mph.

Why doesnt anybody like the 116?? For starters the dashboard and cockpit is not cluttered with alot of idiot lights, strange switches, bells and whistles. Then there are those who dont realize the turning radius, general responsiveness and handling of this gigantic flagship sedan is actually tighter than what they can get with a Toyota. Finally, there are those mechanically challenged foks who remain scared to death of Vintage foreign automobiles thinking that newer models have fewer things that can go wrong.

Fahrg, it sounds like you know what you are doing and understand MB technology well enough to value craftsmanship of Vintage models above the rest.

I think that's what alot of people do when they cross the threshold of understanding what these automobiles are about - they suddenly dont care if the car they drive is old enough to vote as they sellect their automobile of choice from whichever classic body style they prefer.... 111, 108, 114, 116 - knowing it's an all around better vehicle than *anything* that has been built in the last two or three decades.

Dont know who's been running the company for the past 20 years, but MB used to TELL the rest of the world how to make cars. Lately it seems their greatest and most immitated advancement in design has been the 'bikini bottom' rear trunk lines of the early 80's 300E which was once called "pure pornography" by the president of the company.

Where will Mercedes go from here? I am guessing they will abandon their follies with wild and crazy electronic gadgets as they discover this is not what anybody wants or needs.

W116 Fans
 

To all the W 116 fans, I would like to let you know that I have a growing library of magazine articles about our favourite cars available online at the w116.org web site. I find them to be a fascinating read considering the standard of other cars from the '70s.

Personally, I drive a '77 450 SE. I think it is a great car, better than most modern cars and full of character. Gets all the right attention while slipping under the radar of undesirables.

As for performance, I have never found the car to be lacking. With speed limits as they are (110kph max in Australia), the car is always well within its limits. The W 116 was designed to perform its best on the highway, allowing safe overtaking at autobahn speeds. More impressive than the 0-100kph is the 80-120kph when compared to other cars.

The best thing about these cars in my opinion is that they promote a sensible driving style. They happily accomodate city driving fitting into traffic but really excel on the highway, cruising along comfortably. It is difficult to do something silly behind the wheel of one of these cars (although not impossible!)

Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust
Rust

The sound of a W116 sitting in the drive. No other major problems, but finding one that isn't rusted away is getting to be a challange.

I always loved the look, even more than the W108, but passed on one a couple years ago (for $2000!) because the floor was going under the driver's seat and I didn't feel like messing with it.

They rusted away in Germany, too. Something about the Italian and Russian steel used (the German steelworkers were on strike most of the production run).

Handling should be identical, the parts are mostly interchangeable in the suspesion between the W126 and the W116, they even weigh almost exactly the same amount!


Peter

fargewehr: I worked on a D-Jet 450SE in the junkyard pulling the heads from it, and I can assure you, there were no cats in the engine compartment - I don't think it even had cats. (Note: After I typed this, I double-checked here and it seems correct. I then checked the 450SL because I remember hearing that they did - http://timevalve.com/cat/us/p09c.html ) The 77-79 seems to have them right under the driver and passenger - http://timevalve.com/cat/us/p11c.html

The chains don't snap themselves, the plastic guide rails do, making the chain skip teeth on the cam gear due to the slack it introduces into the system. I've heard it happening more often on 116's than 117's but it is an issue.

I LOVE the 116's.
However, what I really want is what the factory never built for the mass market - a long wheelbase 300SD

I have an excellent low miles (143 k) drivetrain that is just waiting for a rust free 1980 450sel body (ONLY a 1980 because they switched back from italian steel to german that year)

IMHO, (and I have 2 300SDs from the 80's , a 201 body from the 90's and a 115 chassis) NOTHING beats a 116 body in handling

Hey,

Well Ive owned my 78 450SEL for almost a year and its great. I got it with rust spots on the fenders and the doors had problems but after almost 9 months of restoration and still in the process its starting to shape up. I recently discovered a picture of the AMG one and its great.

I did the timing chain in a weekend and other regular maintenance on the engine and nothing seems out of hands if you have the time to do it and documentation. My friend scott who I used to work on the engine didnt really like working in the bay since its far more crowded than his 300e but I dont mind it as much.

The problems and the rust have been mostly replaced throughout the car and its a gonna look great once its painted and all in a little bit. The interior has bad seats but im looking to replace those as well very soon. I am gonna try to sell it cause gas mileage sucks compared newer models unless i can figure out a way to put a 560 in there and make it look like the original amg.