Read the part I highlighted again and tell me how it is *not* drivvel.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

it's not drivel because it goes to the point that MS and others were discussing earlier in this thread although Eagleton is taking a different position. I believe I had written that an atheist could believe that 'something always existed' but that this was not God. I think MS concucurred. Eagleton is disagreeing. He is claiming that whatever always exists is God. An interesting divergence from the earlier discussion in the thread, because it requires no personalization of God, or notion that God is involved with the world, or that God has any connection to morality/sin/salvation etc.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

In other words a "deist" rather than "theist" postion. Nothing new in that and the deist position in itself is meaningless in as much as it merely plays word games with our understanding or lack thereof of the nature of the universe. Science (atheism) does not play such games. It merely says that there is no evidence for the existance of the supernatural and no cult has any better claim to understanding ultimate causes than science so dont pretend god exists just because you dont know how the universe got started.

But I don't think that the bit I hightlghted can be dignified with that level of appellation. I think it's poorly written obfuscation masquerading as intellectual worth. Like much of philosophy in my opinion.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

I don't think his view leads directly to deism, but it is similar. I also don't think Eagleton is denying or decrying science. I think he's pointing out that theology is not science. He definitely is not defending a supernatural theology. He appears to think that science is incapable of understanding ultimate causes which seems like a reasonable claim. Thinking that science does provide us with a competing ultimate cause to a theological cause is the problem he sees in Dawkins.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Well if Dawkins is right there would be more funding available for the biology dept.

I tend to agree with Eagleton's premise, though I agree with pj6 that he starts off with a flourish of poorly woven concepts, he gets to the core eventually and presents his position quite well. There is another level of faith in 'particular realities' inherent in religions that he seems to avoid and then disown in his conclusion. I think because it is much more the truly contested ground of the matter. Where faith and reason compete for human attention.

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

Precisely. I'd like to see Eagleton and Hitchins go at it.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

It may be coming. I wonder if they are afraid of each other

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/dec/16/martinamis

and then

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/21/race.religion

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

Jacques Derrida
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3fScS2cnB0&feature=PlayList&p=1136D7A086BFBDDA&index=3

Interesting perspective. Believing implies some atheism.

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

Derrida is repeating the point that Paul Tillich insisted upon; that 'God does not exist' is an implicit view of philosophical theism because God is what Tillich called the 'Ground of Being' (whatever that means) and therefore cannot exist as 'a' being.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

"whatever that means" ... precisely. More meaningless word games.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

It takes a powerful brand of atheism to insist that a theist who avows that "god does not exist" is kidding himself.

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

God may be personified in religion, but I don't think god need be a person or being.

__________________
1984 300TD

Joh 14:6..... Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

__________________
Matt (SD,CA)

1984 300SD.. White/Chrome Bunts..Green

1997 2500 Dodge Ram 5.9 Cummins 12 Valve 36 PSI of Boost = 400+hp & 800+tQ .. ..Greenspeed

2004 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 Quad Cab Cummins 5.9 H.O "596hp/1225tq" 6 spd. Man. Leather Heated seats/Loaded..Flame Red....GREENSPEED

Global warming...Doing my part, Smokin da hippies..

Fight the good fight!......

i like how you think for yourself. oh, wait a minute, you didn't write that, you're just parroting the words and beliefs of someone else. kind of sad, and not too original.

__________________
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Yeah that appears to be the exent of Matt SD300's ability to try and argue a point is to quote the bible and put a smiley face on it or something......It is very sad. A true example of people who follow the bible not thinking for themselves. Instead they fall back on the bible to do the thinking for them in a way I almost admire them not having to make any sort of choices but mostly I do feel sorry for them.....