I have read that the new 7 series will have a 320HP 4.4L V-8 and 400HP 6.0L V-12. Where does this leave the S-class ? The 740i will have 18 more HP than even the S500, but the competitor to the 740i is the S430 not the S500. And what about the V-12 ? 367 against the new V-12 w/ 400 hp ? I know that the S55 is out, but that's a AMG tuned car, so lets compare that with M tuned cars, not normal bmw models. Does anyone have any info on when MB will come out w/ new 4.3 and 5.0 liter engines ? I suspect when the supercharged S50 comes out in a couple years they will update the 430 and 500 engines as well. What do you think ? Does anyone have any additional info ?

Eventhough we all love speed, I do not think that the main reason to buy one of these fine cars is speed. Anyway, you cannot race them past 150 mph.

Check out the torque fiqures for both cars. I think you will find Mercedes comes out ahead. Torque is a more important measure of power and acceleration than horse power. Either way, the only people that compare these cars head to head are the nit wits at road and track and other car magazines. Both are super cars, but you're comparing apples and oranges. Style and personal taste would be more of a deciding factor in buying either car than horse power ratings.



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Jason Priest
1986 420SEL

Style and personal taste is the deciding factor? What about long term reliability? What about which one will spend more time at the dealers service department?

I used to, very naively, believe that when people were declaring one car better than another, they were speaking of which one would break the least and last the longest.

I finally discovered how naive that I am. Most people don't even give this criteria a second thought(probably not a first thought).

If you want the better driving and performing machine, and you're comparing cars that are in the same class, engine size, overall size, etc., then the BMW will be it almost every time. If you're looking for a better built car, you know such things as timing chains rather than short lived timing belts, etc., you pick an MB.

Good luck,



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Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

Ok, we all know how reliable MB is. It is very reliable, and probably even more so than the 7 series. But MB can't JUST focus on reliability, better emmsisions, and better fuel economy. They shoulden't just sit back and watch other car makers make better all around performing cars. MB can make the cars as reliable as they already are AND increace performance. This was not meant to be a post about reliability, it was supposed to be about performance. I know many people think that MB isn't supposed to be a sporty kind of car, but they're wrong. MB is trying to come out with sportier cars, just look at the new C-class. And in response to the post in which the person said look at the torque figures: the S430 has 275 lb ft of torque compared to the 324 lg ft torque in the 740il. I know the S500 has more torque, but it has a bigger engine. The S430 should match up with the 740, not the S500. Anyway people look for different things in cars, and this is just my opinion.

I still don't think that you can compare the S430 with the 740. MB doesn't just sit around and say, hmmm BMW has a new v-8, lets build one with the exact same displacement and see if we can't get better performance out of it. In the end I think it all comes down to marketing. MB's buyers are different from BMW's buyers, so the cars are built to different specs.

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Jason Priest
1986 420SEL

I atree with Jason. MB's and BMW's are marketed to different tastes. That said, I also think there is the perceived "status". I think the majority of people (who are not true car buffs) believe that Mercedes vehicles have more status than BMW. So, you will find people who would prefer the driving dynamics of a BMW 740i, but purchase the Mercedes S-Class because it has more "class".

Personally, I prefer driving the 740, but love the "style" of the Mercedes. The new BMW 7-series should be interesting. I heard that after the BMW board saw the new S-Class, they revamped the exterior of the new 7-series.

I suppose this will prove even more how naive I am. I have ended up sticking with MB's because they keep running.

To me, status and respect are things you earn by working hard and treating people honestly. You can't buy it by purchasing a specific car.

As I've said before, the BMW is the best driving and handling of the two. The MB throws an extra measure of reliability into the mix. If reliability is more important to you than handling, buy the Benz, if not buy the BMW.

If anyone thinks they can get true status and respect simply by buying a particular car, I think they haven't really figured out what status and respect are made of.

My $0.02,

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Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

I agree with Larry. I just bought a 2001 S430 because it is a Benz. I have 183,000 miles on my 300e and it is still a teriffic car. With that kind of service, I did not even look at the BMW's.

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Scott
1987 300e
2001 S430
1948 Chevy Firetruck

well I've driven Various BMW's,318's 325's, 328's M3's, M5's, 525's and 535's, and a 94, 97 and 2000 740il bmw. and a 77 530i.

I've also driven an sl600 an s500 coupe, a 560SEL, a 380SL, a 450SL, a 78 300d, a 75 190, a 59 190, an 80 300D Wagon,an 84 190e, an 85 190e, my 300ce, and a 420sel.

out of all these cars I've had the opportunity to drive. some were friends cars, others family members cars, other cars my immediate family has owned before. I personally think they all drive great.

I havent seen the bmw's break down often at all, and are actually quite reliable from what I have seen. My friends m5 has only been in the shop a couple of times for little things, his car doesnt leak anything, drives great, and has 90k on it. My other friend had a 92 325 for 3 years no problems, then a 96 for a year, then a 97 m3 for 2 years, then he sold the m3 to another friend of ours, and it hasnt given any trouble for 2 years. The only bmw exception I had was the 77 530i I had which drove ok, but the engine was definately a problem.

My other friend has had each model of 740IL from a 94 up, and they have all been great with no problems that werent little things. He always buys bmw no matter what.

My family has always owned merceds and I personally like the driving feel of the mercedes for the car I would own and drive every day. For a car I would have as lets say a spare, definately an "M" BMW.

If I wanted a real sports car, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and the other true sports cars are what I would get.

Other cars I have driven and loved but would not buy to drive every day are a maserati biturbo, nice driving, fast and a sexy looking car, and a 76-89 porsche 911. these cars I cannot see driving every day for reasons that I would be on the hammer the whole time hehehe... I find that if I am in a fast car I drive way too fast. Since I got the benz I went from driving the speed limit to 20 mph over it now at all times.

When I want a nice driving very sporty sedan, I buy BMW.

When I want a well engineered car that is refined and consistanly creates cars that are timelessly styled again and again, I look to Mercedes.

I havent seen one mercedes Style that Wasn't beautiful to me. I also like having the three pointed star crosshairs to guide me down the center of the lane.

I've seen some ugly BMW's though.

I would say in the last 10 years bmw has gotten to become a reliable car. I think in the past they werent as reliable.

I don't think you can really compare any well made car like bmw, mercedes, porsche, etc. They all have their own strengths, and these companies play off their strengths.

I think mercedes has time and again designed stylish effective cars that to me are always reinventing the styling of cars throught the world.

I think many car companies look to see how mercedes has been styling their cars, and they come up with their own versions.

To me mercedes is my choice of automobile based on the driving experience I get from a mercedes. My driving style fits well with a mercedes. I like to have power on hand, and I like to be comfortable and feel like I am in a solid well built car.

I prefer to have a car that was designed to be safe and solid at speed.

Alon

Damnt that's long but it had to be said..

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'92 300CE
Metallic Black (Blue Flaked) on Parchment
Clear Corners
94-95 Tail-Lights
Black Grille Insert
78.5k Miles

Future Upgrades:
Sportline Suspension
17" AMG Monoblocks or EVO II's
Euro Headlights
Performance Chip
AMG Exhaust

Click here to Go To My 300CE Page

In reading Ashmans post I realized that I need to point something out. When I talk about the reliability and longevity of a BMW being less than an MB, that's what I'm relating it to, an MB. Compared to most American cars, a BMW is a reliability and longevity giant.

Sometimes I assume that people know in what context I speak.

Have a great day,

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Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

I agree with Larry. You don't get respect from the car you drive. My car gets more respect than other cars, but I don't get no respect. No respect at all. You car can make you look cool though, at least until people meet you, so so what I do and just drive around all day without talking to anybody and everyone will think you're cool because you drive around in a cool car. Mercedes are definitely the coolest cars.


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Jason Priest
1986 420SEL

Unfortunately, until you get to know someone, appearance is everything. If you are wearing a Brooks Brothers suit, the cut and material are going to look better on you than a polyester/rayon suit from Kmart (not that there is anything wrong with your poly/rayon suit from Kmart). If you take someone who is not a car buff, who doesn't really know much about cars, and place a new S-Class and new 7-series in front of them and ask them which they think is the "richer" car, I bet they will choose MB because of the 3-pointed star.

I've heard similar for the Rolls-Royce Silver Seraph/Bently Arnage. People who want to "display" their wealth, choose the car with that nice Spirit of Ecstasy on the radiator. People that are wealthy, but want a car that drives more sporty, choose the Bentley. AND, those cars are basically the same body, save for the grill.

I have a 740 and a CL. I enjoy driving the 740, but LOVE my CL. Maybe learning to drive in a 280sl and being exposed to family MB's during my formative years has prejudiced me. :-)

Whatever you drive, enjoy.

This kind of thread sure gets attention(and flames), anyways...

Comparing/judging a car base on HP(or engine outputs for that matters)is very un-enthusiastic(if there is a such word for it). HP means nothing w/out good tranny. Sure BMW has handling edges over MB, but believe it or not, MB trannies are more bulletproofed then Bimmer's. But is that necessary makes Bimmer a "lesser" car then MB?? Of course not....sometimes it's by all means about luck.... my old BMW 520i(E28), Euro-Spec, had a busted Radiator tank and water pump at 45K, but my W140's water pump lasts for 60k before it needs to be replaced.

As someone pointed out, and I fully agreed, is that MB and Bimmer targets different market for luxury sedan, and comparing the 2 is just like comparing Apple to Orange. Each has its own right/charateristic, yet they are not jumping ahead of each other.

Andy Kuo

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<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>1992 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
<LI>Pearl Grey/Black Leather
</UL>
ICQ#26950002
Mercedes Owners ICQ ActiveList ID#61730549
Mercedes S-Class Page
http://akry.homestead.com

Oh yes
How about the weight of the new 7 series
Will it be lighter or heavier?
That will count too.