Wow Brian, didn't think you were that type of person.

You have yet to state anything about my point. You have simply talked about rate of cooling.

So then if you are saying I'm wrong you are saying that it is possible for the wind to cool you down past the air temperature?

How many miles do you have on that puppy?

Well, against my better judgment........here we go:

You made these statements:

I have a couple of questions for you:

1) If you walk outside with an ambient air temperature of 10°F. with no wind, can we agree that the air temperature "feels" like 10°F?

This is important........and we must agree before we go to #2:

2) If you walk outside with an ambient air temperature of 10°F. with 30 knot winds, do you feel colder than you would feel without any wind?

And, if the above is in the affirmative..........

3) Since you do feel colder, what temperature would you judge the air to be when a 30 kt. wind is present? Would it be accurate to say that you might believe that the ambient air temperature is approximately -5°F.........using the baseline of no wind as your barometer?


Please limit your answers to simple yes and no for question #1 and #2.

1)Yes

2)Yes

3)This is my point. What it FEELS like. I know that it will FEEL colder if the wind is blowing. I don't need some forecaster telling me what temperature it will FEEL like. They only do that for shock value. I don't need a windchill 'temperature'. I know it will feel colder and so would any other person that has experienced it. All they need to say is the ambient air temperature and the wind speed.


Okay, some questions for you.

1)If the ambient air temperature is 10F, is it possible (without the prescence of any extra cold/heat sources) for the wind to cool an object (including a human) down past 10F?

2)Does the rate of cooling by the wind vary greatly (assuming same wind speed) if the ambient air temperature is 10F or 100F?

3)Do meteorologists talk about windchill during the summer when it is 100F out?


Also, thank you for arguing rationally this time without taking shots at me.

Thanks Brian. This worked just as well as pressing it all the way down and bringing it up halfway. The usual 'one kick' start happened this morning when I tried this method of very slightly depressing the pedal.

In other news, I discovered that my Benz can actually handle the 6 inch unploughed highway today! I had my doubts as I had a little trouble reversing out of the driveway this morning as cars driving by had built up a little snowbank about 18 inches high. Some rocking back and forth between D and R got me out of that. After that, the car held rock steady thoughout my drive. Maybe the 20 Litre water bottle I placed in the boot had something to with it, but whatever...I'm happy to have made it to work unmolested

__________________
1987 300TD
1984 300D
755,000 KM and going strong
BC Canada

You've agreed with the physics. You clearly don't like the way the physics is portrayed by the media. That's perfectly acceptable. I agree with you.

But, please, don't make statements that are patently false:





Your questions are answered as follows:

1) It is not possible.

2) The rate of cooling by wind depends on the differential between the object to be cooled and the temperature of the cooling air.

3) In the summer, meteorologists talk about the "temperature/humidity index" which allows them to state a higher temperature than the actual air temperature.........and, I'm sure you'll have a field day with that one.........

1. yes actually. you can freeze water with an air temp of 34°F don't forget that evaporation (the change of state from a liquid to a gas) takes away heat, so if it's 34°F and a breeze is blowing, the water will evaporate faster, taking heat away from the liquid remaining, causing it to lower temp enough to actually freeze... try it sometime.

2. YES

3. ... sometimes. if breezy they give breezy comfort info... no, I don't think I can ever remember any windchill statements in 100°F weather. they do however use "heat index" in relation to the amount of humidity... again to make it simple to the observer of the comfort to the human body in simple terms.

ya gotta understand this.
99% of the TV viewers out there are idiots.
forecasters gotta give simple info the idiots and the scientists alike can understand.
you agreed with Brian that 10°F with wind feels colder than 10°F without wind.
more than likely 10°F with wind chill of -4°F would FEEL like -4°F without wind... OK?
just because YOU are more comfortable with the forecaster stating 10 and windy does not mean that the other 99% of that forecaster's viewers would.
how many of the products advertised by the station do you buy? the forecaster's are there to SELL THESE ADS! they gotta make the general public wanna watch and therefore buy!

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 560SL convertible
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
2005 Dodge Sprinter 2500 158"WB
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

Okay, you figured me out. I don't like the meteorologists. Many of them have limited background in science and just want to be on TV.

I still don't see how you can say my first statement in your quote

"they say it FEELS like -15F, which is impossible."

is, as you put it, patently false. You agreed with that in #1.

My second statement in your quote is correct in how meterologists use it. It is bs. They say the air temperature FEELS like the wind chill number. Which leads the general public to go bonkers. They think it is actually that cold. That is why they should simply say the ambient air temperature and the wind speed. People then could figure out that it will be more bitter.

You just answered yes to the Brain's 3 questions about if it FEELS colder when the wind is blowing.......and now you can't understand why your statement "they say it FEELS like -15F, which is impossible" is another factually incorrect statement?

It's not -15F but it FEELS like it. Exactly. I think you're too hung up on bashing the talking heads/telling us that you're a teacher (of which I commend you for).....that you're missing the point in your very own words.

__________________
1981 240d - 135k - Arlene

I agree that it is not possible to cool an object below the level of the ambient temperature (evap cooling issues excepted).

However, a warmer object will definitely "feel" colder than the ambient temperature when subject to convective cooling. The object will lose heat at a faster rate and will cool down faster. How fast? If the ambient temperature was 15 degrees cooler........as an example........the rate of cooling of the warm object with no convection would be identical to the rate of cooling at the warmer ambient with convection.

The statements of meteorologists have substance in fact. If you are dressing for an ambient temperature of 10°F. and there is no wind, you need a certain amount of protective gear. If you are dressing for an ambient temperature of 10°F. with 30 kt. winds, you absolutely need protective gear that will keep you warm at an air temperature of -5°F. That's the reason for the "wind chill" number.........whether you like the portrayal..........or not.

As you your claim that the meteorologist "thinks" that it is actually that cold, I'll leave that to you since I'm not clairvoyant and I don't know........or care........what they think.

I don't agree with this. And I don't think it is fair when people say 'try it', or look it up to verify their point. How easy would it be to replicate these conditions? A room with a constant 34F? Wind blowing. It would be nearly impossible to maintain a 34F temperature to verify this. You would need to show me proof, not me trying it for myself.

You don't like physics, do you?

Which verifies my point! In winter they talk about the extreme cold wind chills for shock value. In summer they talk about the heat index (which can do more harm to people). If wind chill was such an important number, it would be stated in the summer as well. The heat index is important (but again I don't need a temperature number) because the human body will not be able to cool itself sufficiently under higher humidities.


EXACTLY MY POINT! THEY ARE SIMPLY TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO WATCH!

So if I can assume that you are saying people believe what they see on TV (since people watch it to get there info) then why not state things ACCURATELY? Not make up some fancy numbers? I guess that is why I am a teacher. So I can tell people what to believe when they watch TV!

Yes, but why do they need a temperature number for the windchill? That is misleading. Why can't they simply say it is 5F and the wind is 30kt? People would realize it would feel colder?

People are stupid. The reason for the wind chill number is to give the people a figure that makes some sense in order to dress appropriately.

As I've tried to convey, clearly unsuccessfully, you need to dress differently for 10°F. with no wind versus 10°F. with 30 kt. winds.

You're a science teacher. Why do you believe that the average person would understand the cooling effects of the wind.........and, even if they did understand it in a general way..........how could they apply it to their choice of clothing? The "wind-chill" figure greatly assists in this endeavor.

The hyperbole elicited by the newscaster in the process of delivering the wind-chill number is not part of the science of the discussion.........and, unfortunately, you've confused the two.

Stop watching TV then. I have. This forum is a better form of entertainment.

__________________
1981 240d - 135k - Arlene

Okay, you put it so I see what your saying. I should have worded it like this.

Meteorologists say it FEELS like it is -15F. That is misleading because you can't cool down past the air temperature. What I meant is that it is impossible to BE -15F if the air temperature is 5F.

And how many times have I mentioned I am a teacher? Twice now. The first was because Brian was telling me that I was incorrect. I assumed he was saying that my incorrect statement was that the air temperature can get down to the wind chill which we have worked out now and seem to understand where each other are coming from. I just wanted him to know that I have a science background so I do have some knowledge of what I am talking about. The second was in jest. Notice the smiley face?

You are right about me being hung up on the talking heads. But I guess they are just catering to the public, right? Or is the public the way they are because of them?

It is kind of hard to ignore them if you want any form of news. I very seldom WATCH the news anymore. I get most of my news from the internet. But they still try to get there shockers in!