Hybrid/Flex Fuel......Why not diesel??? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

bill murrow · #1 08-29-2006, 06:18 PM

With US auto makers pushing the multi fuel and hybrid cars I have been wondering why no mention of any new diesels? Ok....I know someone will come up with one or two new diesels but my point is the majority of the chatter from Washington and auto makers is increased production of flex and hybrid vehicles.

We have had the resources and knowledge to build a clean, efficient diesel for years. Of late the diesels have next to zero soot. My '99 F250 diesel hardly dirties the oil and doesn't smoke at all when the throttle is romped on plus I get 23MPG. I would think that a 60 or 70 MPG commuter vehicle would be quite appealing to the masses.

Whats your take on this?

Cheers,

Bill

F18 · #2 08-29-2006, 06:54 PM

Bill,
It does seem to most of us who drive diesels that a diesel hybrid would be a natural and responsible product to bring to market.....but in US the % of current diesel passenger vehicles is microscopic. "Joe Public" still thinks in terms of diesel as Farm Equipment and 18 Wheelers. We are a gasoline nation
and the auto makers market and sell what "joe public" understands and demands. They are not going to reinvent the wheel for us unless they absolutely have to.
But ethically the auto makers did have some responsibility to educate the consumer about diesel...but they have done very little over the years. These are the same US auto makers (ie. Ford and GM) that produce diesel passenger vehicles in their Europe plants for the Europen market...why? because the Europeans have demanded efficient diesel vehicles since World War II.
So the fuel of choice ie. gasoline is the medium to assist in intoducing the Hybrid Technology to the masses. Toyoto being light years ahead of everyone.....and I read somewhere that they are already working on a diesel/hybrid......not GM, not Ford, and not Crystler/Daimler but Toyota.

Cheers,

Rudolphrocks · #3 08-29-2006, 06:56 PM

AMEN!!! I have been saying this for an eternity, Eaton is making a hydralic accumulator that increases fuel mileage by 30% (!!!!!) on UPS trucks. We do have flex fuel, its called bio and anyother oil you can dream of.
Peace

bill murrow · #4 08-29-2006, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F18

Bill,
It does seem to most of us who drive diesels that a diesel hybrid would be a natural and responsible product to bring to market.....but in US the % of current diesel passenger vehicles is microscopic. "Joe Public" still thinks in terms of diesel as Farm Equipment and 18 Wheelers. We are a gasoline nation
and the auto makers market and sell what "joe public" understands and demands. They are not going to reinvent the wheel for us unless they absolutely have to.
But ethically the auto makers did have some responsibility to educate the consumer about diesel...but they have done very little over the years. These are the same US auto makers (ie. Ford and GM) that produce diesel passenger vehicles in their Europe plants for the Europen market...why? because the Europeans have demanded efficient diesel vehicles since World War II.
So the fuel of choice ie. gasoline is the medium to assist in intoducing the Hybrid Technology to the masses. Toyoto being light years ahead of everyone.....and I read somewhere that they are already working on a diesel/hybrid......not GM, not Ford, and not Crystler/Daimler but Toyota.

Cheers,

Now that you mention it I clearly remember when GM tried to introduce the diesel to the masses by producing a 350 CI diesel that failed miserably. Then came the powerful 6.2.

Neither of those engines did a thing to popularize diesels.

I still think that a 70MPG vehicle would appeal to a large amount of the population, regardless of what it burns. Although diesels are perceived as dirty.

Yes, I read the same thing about Toyota and, if I'm not mistaken, isn't Honda coming out with a new diesel as well?

Cheers,

Bill

F18 · #5 08-29-2006, 07:35 PM

Bill...Wow your dating yourself! Yes I remember GM's big Oldsmobile sedans of the early 70's. They did more to harm the publics opinion of diesels....because of poor design, poor dependability, and lack of qualified service. We would be years ahead in the US if we did not have that huge GM setback! What an abortion!

Just opened my August 06 issue of "Diesel Car" from the UK.... and on the page I happened to open to (page 12) is a feature article of the Peugot 307 Hybride/HDI DIESEL. A beautiful convertible diesel/electric hybrid which they had shown at the Geneva Motor Show in February....and plan on having available for the 2010 season.....That depects the differences in the markets of Europe and the USA. We will never see that car here...and people in Europe will be enjoying that diesel tehnology driving hybrids powered by BioDiesel for 10 years before it hits the US shores.

I guess for now we will have to be satified with running our aging MBs' on BioDiesel when we can find it........

pmckechnie · #6 08-29-2006, 07:41 PM

I've said it before and I will say it again. The reason diesels are not sold in this country is because:
From each barral of crude they can extract X amount of Diesel, and X amount of gasoline. I know that they can modify this to some extent, for instance they can CRACK diesel and get gas, but they can't do any thing to gas to get Diesel. Now suppose the people in power let anyone build and sell diesels, which are proven to be more efficient, what would the gas companies do with all the left over gasoline? The new 2007 trucks (big trucks) will cost from $10,000 to $15,000 more because of modifications to filter out the particulat (sp) matter from the exhaust. Some of these trucks get as high as 10 mpg while SUVs are only geting 12 mpg. Now we are talking about one truck getting 10 mpg with a total weight of 80,000 lbs and the SUV with a total weight of 6000 lbs. Which is more efficient? The gas companies are not going to let large numbers of diesel be sold here. They have the balance just about where they want it.
Now go ahead and flame me, as I know you will, or wake up and smell the roses.

DeliveryValve · #7 08-29-2006, 07:41 PM

Hey guys,

Not change subjects or hijack this tread, but maybe this is related. I was thinking how does a diesel electric Locomotive work? Would you consider it as a hybrid vehicle? I wonder if you can make an automobile version of it?

Just a thought.

Richard

BTW F18 -one correction the Oldsmobile diesel was made in the late 70's up to 1985.

bill murrow · #8 08-29-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmckechnie

I've said it before and I will say it again. The reason diesels are not sold in this country is because:
From each barral of crude they can extract X amount of Diesel, and X amount of gasoline. I know that they can modify this to some extent, for instance they can CRACK diesel and get gas, but they can't do any thing to gas to get Diesel. Now suppose the people in power let anyone build and sell diesels, which are proven to be more efficient, what would the gas companies do with all the left over gasoline? The new 2007 trucks (big trucks) will cost from $10,000 to $15,000 more because of modifications to filter out the particulat (sp) matter from the exhaust. Some of these trucks get as high as 10 mpg while SUVs are only geting 12 mpg. Now we are talking about one truck getting 10 mpg with a total weight of 80,000 lbs and the SUV with a total weight of 6000 lbs. Which is more efficient? The gas companies are not going to let large numbers of diesel be sold here. They have the balance just about where they want it.
Now go ahead and flame me, as I know you will, or wake up and smell the roses.

Not to "flame" you but.....

If they started to build diesels today for the masses they wouldn't have a drop of leftover gas by the time they hit the market.

Heck, just the talk of a hurricane hitting the gulf coast puts them into a frenzy.

You do have a point regarding cost. But really, how much more could a small diesel engine cost compared to a gas engine? Especially once they start churning them out by the thousands.

Bottom line is most likely more $ in gas than diesel.

Sure would like to get my hands on one of those Peugot convertibles!

BTW F18 -one correction the Oldsmobile diesel was made in the late 70's up to 1985.
rmarzan......you're right. Us guys that have been around the block a few times have a tendency towards memory loss.

I think GM started with 350 diesel in '79 but, correct me if I'm wrong, by '83 ['84 model year]they were phased out and the speedy 6.2 N/A was introduced. I had an '84 Suburban with the 6.2. Good engine [the truck is still around!] but wouldn't pass a thing except fuel stops and smoked even when new.

dating myself again.

Cheers,

Bill

F18 · #9 08-29-2006, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmarzan

Hey guys,

Not change subjects or hijack this tread, but maybe this is related. I was thinking how does a diesel electric Locomotive work? Would you consider it as a hybrid vehicle? I wonder if you can make an automobile version of it?

Just a thought.

Richard

BTW F18 -one correction the Oldsmobile diesel was made in the late 70's up to 1985.

Richard, your are right about the Olds diesel production....at my age I am lucky I quoted the right century..it all starts to blend together after a while!

And yes you are right about the Diesel Locos...they are a type of diesel/electric hybrid.
And the technology has been used for years in the marine industry for ships and subs. Germany's whole fleet of Subs (U-Boats) that were the curse of the high seas in WWII were diesel/electric hybrids. Todays modern subs are nuclear/electric hybrids. What has changed over the years is the battery technology which has allowed for more efficient, compact electric storage cells to be used with a power plant which has opened up the application to automobile use.

Rashakor · #10 08-29-2006, 08:06 PM

I read somewhere that the successor of the Humvee would be a diesel/hybrid.

Just google the terms together and most of the american hits are about that baby. Sorry civilians not for ya!

Blevinsax · #11 08-29-2006, 08:16 PM

It doesn't take long to see that our current president is a (failed) oil man from an oil family - any wonder why all the focus is on the gas guzzling cars?? Even the hybrids aren't that great - and they're focusing on the wrong thing... They say, "This wonderfuly hybrid has a 6-cylinder engine, but the power of a V-8 thanks to the hybrid technology!"

Added power is not the point, the point is FUEL ECONOMY. The fuel economy on some of these hybrids is the same (or ALMOST the same) as a regular 6-cylinder, so there is no real fuel economy improvement - therefore the oil companies continue to make their record profits.

It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to put 2 and 2 together and see the line we've been fed here in the US for the last 40 years. They do have it right in Europe and Japan - Japan has more American influence (after WWII we wrote their constitution, after all!) thus the emphasis on gas moreso than diesel, but they have such wonderful mass transit and the cars get great fuel economy, even for gassers.

Anyhow - all the American suckers can keep paying through to nose for their precious gasoline for their precious Hummers; I'll just buy stock in oil companies, run WVO in my own vehicles, and I'll reap the dividends.

F18 · #12 08-29-2006, 08:28 PM

Blevinsax, I like the way you think!

I have a "Willie Nelson BioDiesel" sticker on my 8 year old MB and certain people think I am some sort of hick up here in Kenedy land....but I am laughing all the way to the bank while they are sitting at the gas pumps day after day in their SUVs. On a selfish note.. I am glad everyone is not jumping on the diesel band wagon it would create a shortage and send diesel fuel prices through the roof until supply caught up to demand

pmckechnie · #13 08-29-2006, 08:37 PM

Do any of you remember that in 84 (I think) Olds also had a V6, 4.3 I believe, diesel in the Cutlass. I had one and as I remember, it was a perty good car. Ran good enough and got great mileage but by then the American public was not going to buy anything made by Olds. I remember I had to go get my parents during the worst of Hugo (any one remember Hugo). The little olds diesel did a good job inspite of being blown all over the road, having to go through trees down across the road, and rain so bad it was hard to see the Olds emblem on the hood. But it got my parents out of harms way and got us back to my house. Later that night, a huge tree fell across my parents house and landed in their bed..
Anyway, Olds did build a V6 diesel which was a great engine. Just too late.

F18 · #14 08-29-2006, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmckechnie

Do any of you remember that in 84 (I think) Olds also had a V6, 4.3 I believe, diesel in the Cutlass. I had one and as I remember, it was a perty good car. Ran good enough and got great mileage but by then the American public was not going to buy anything made by Olds. I remember I had to go get my parents during the worst of Hugo (any one remember Hugo). The little olds diesel did a good job inspite of being blown all over the road, having to go through trees down across the road, and rain so bad it was hard to see the Olds emblem on the hood. But it got my parents out of harms way and got us back to my house. Later that night, a huge tree fell across my parents house and landed in their bed..
Anyway, Olds did build a V6 diesel which was a great engine. Just too late.

I remember Hurricane Hugo 1985 that was a few weeks after my son was born..the whole coast line up through Long Island and Connecticut and out to the tip of Cape Cod was devistated. Certain pictures of the water front damage left by Katrina down south reminds me of the all the boats up here that were heaped up in piles by Hugo. But I vaguely remember the diesel Cutless......

Jeremy5848 · #15 08-29-2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmarzan

Hey guys,

Not change subjects or hijack this tread, but maybe this is related. I was thinking how does a diesel electric Locomotive work? Would you consider it as a hybrid vehicle? I wonder if you can make an automobile version of it?

A diesel-electric railroad locomotive has a diesel engine (or several) driving a large electric generator (or several). Current from the generator(s) drives motors that are -- I am uncertain here -- near or in or part of -- the axles. The advantages are several. The diesel engines can be designed to operate in a narrow speed range, where efficiency is maximized. The electric motors have a torque curve that peaks at zero RPM, thus ideal for starting great loads from a stop. All of the "gear changes" are done electrically, thus maximizing flexibility and ease of use.

Designs for similar automobiles have been done. Some battery electric cars have been tried with a motor in each wheel. The problem is the usual one, people buy what they're familiar with. The only reason that gas-electric hybrids have achieved any acceptance is that their operation is user-transparent.

Jeremy